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The Times Are A Changin'

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Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 324

PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LordLink's actually come up with some excellent points for discussion. I wanna take a look at these:

1. The WPN changes seem to be doing just that, helping local stores to create better communities. People harp on about the adverse affects but the goal is admirable.

I agree with Link's view about what the WPN could achieve, but I disagree it's the correct way to go about it. The most significant element of any community is and always will be the people in it. You may have the best store with the best prizes and biggest tournaments, but if you as an owner are a complete douchewaffle then you're not going to keep players coming back. I think this is an important point that a lot of store owners miss.

Example: In my town there is one comic store. Yes, he stocks Magic. Yes, we could get an FNM started with the right sort of on-campus advertising. One of my friends actually asked me to look into it since I was the guy who had the most knowledge on getting it off the ground.

The problem? The guy who owns the store is a slimeball. Under a different owner, I wouldn't love to get an FNM going in town. I think if individual stores placed greater emphasis on creating a community then Wizards wouldn't have to kill the grassroots communities (which by the way, is laughable considering how much they wanted to develop these).

2. What's wrong with pre-releases becoming smaller, more localised events? I don't understand why PTQ-size pre-releases are so much better than local store ones. We have a great time playing for 48 hours straight with friends and for the larger events we travel to PTQ's and the annual GP.

I think this will come down to WotC giving their tournament structuring a massive overhaul. As an observer and not someone that plays paper Magic all that often, I find the need to go scouring stores to find out about events...excessive. I also find the...levels of tournaments a lot less free-flowing. Here in Australia we have FNMs/PRs, PTQs and GPs. Events such as Regionals and States barely show up on the radar.

The solution would be to create a tournament hub and overhaul the tournament system. The tournaments currently in place I feel are...a little disjointed. They've been hacked at so much over the past decade when WotC really needs to sit down and create a vision for the new tournament era. 2000-player GPs are all well and good, but there are limits as to how large you can reasonably make these before the logistics become infeasible.

3. Maybe they delete comments on Mythics because they get endlessly trolled about it and want some real conversation for a change? besides, compare the price of your mono-G Eldrazi deck, flooded with Mythics, and compare it to the price of any top deck in any standard format ever (except maybe affinity). Magic is cheaper than it's ever been.

I agree wholeheartedly. People have no doubt seen the thread that pops up every now and again ranting about how they were hard done by because a judge hadn't ruled in a way that they believe the judge had should. These kinds of comments serve no constructive purpose. The same applied here.

In both cases the correct thing to do is contact the appropriate people. Having been on the other side now, I know that every complaint is taken seriously and with consideration. I think if people realise that 100 people emailing the same complaint to WotC will achieve far more than those same 100 people whining on facebook that we will begin to see WotC react more to the commuinity.


4. Wizards making "fucking money" is a sign that they're making the RIGHT damn choices and that more and more people are enjoying the game. If Magic was getting worse, fewer people would play it and they would make LESS money. See how that works?

Logic Very Happy

Seriously though, LordLink is right. However, the additional point from this is that the kind of success WotC is enjoying now is finite. Sooner or later, things will decline. If they become complacent, there will be significant damage to the game. This kind of rise and decline is cyclic - see Mirrodin/Kamigawa compared to today.

Case in point: Magic-League for most of 2007 was in a state much like it is now - not that many judges, not many tournaments and an site crashing a lot like it does today (and if i recall correctly, that's what triggered the move to our current host). Towards the end of 2007 and throughout 2008 we experienced a small boom. We had 200+ people in the channel regularly and were experience 100+ people for trials. Since the 2009 C&D, we've been declining. However, we are starting to increase our numbers again, and over the next 6-12 months as we solve our present issues I completely expect us to boost numbers again.
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Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 1840

PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A man takes part in a bank robbery in of which two innocent people are killed. He makes alot of money from the robbery, did he make the right choice?

A drug dealer knowlingly sells cocaine which is 50% rat poison to increase his profit margin. Resulting in a client suffering permananet brain damage. Did he make the right choice?
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Joined: 17 May 2008
Posts: 45

PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


Since the 2009 C&D, we've been declining. However, we are starting to increase our numbers again, and over the next 6-12 months as we solve our present issues I completely expect us to boost numbers again.

I think the numbers will go up as it's obv cheaper to play comptetive Magic on here then spash out for cards on MTGO, esp. with prices of cards going through the roof at present.

Although this might mean that the evil eye of WOTC/Hasbro might want to meddle in this sites affairs again though...

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Level 1 Judge

Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My opinion on some of these issues:

1. I hate mythics, regardless of total price of decks, I absolutely hate them. They make opening packs feel like playing the lottery, and the feeling is bad. They also make trading for the more expensive cards a real pain.

2. I've seen tons of abuse by people running events not tied to a store. It's very easy to do and people were doing it like crazy. If you ever saw large amounts of gateway, buy-a-box, and prerelease/launch party promos for sale by the same person on sites like e-bay there's a good chance it was due to this kind of abuse. Of course local stores can do this to some extent as well, but with local stores it's a lot easier for people report to issues and wizards to handle it.

Was this change the right move? I have no idea. Should proper justification have been given with it? Probably.

3. The C&D ML was given has had a significant impact on getting new people here. Every day I see several instances of a potential new player here going away because they can't figure out how to get started here and no one helps them out. A new player guide that actually tells them everything they need to know would make a huge difference.
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Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 324

PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jag: As I've said before on more than one occasion in the past, it's in the best interest of WotC and Hasbro (at least, if they care about more than their profit margins) to allow Magic-League to operate side-by-side with MTGO. I would always be more than happy to discuss with WotC regarding this issue.

At present, I see nothing that could bring the lawyer brigade back down on us. I want it to stay that way.

Taodd: I overhauled the HtS guide last month. The feedback I got from the guy I had edit it is that it's clear as crystal even to him (and he's someone who doesn't play the game). There is as much information on there as we can possibly provide without breaking agreements.

The bigger issue is not that players can't understand the guide, but that players aren't taking the time to help new players become a part of Magic-League. It takes all of five seconds to say what application we use. It doesn't take much effort to tell people how to join the tournament (although it does irk me that they can't read what is on a notice every three minutes, but that's neither here nor there). I've been stressing over the past couple of months the importance that Magic-League functions as a community and not a running GP event.
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Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 553

PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, you guys remember when 8th edition came out and everyone freaked out? You remember when they changed the combat rules and everyone freaked out? You remember when ML switched from Apprentice to MWS and everyone freaked out?

Maybe we just like freaking out...

Or maybe it's sad to watch a game we love and have quite heavily invested in get taken from us.

Whichever, I'll still booster draft and play online, but I will never pay more than 50 dollars for a deck of's freaking cardboard and it's way over-priced.
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Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 324

PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember when they started supporting MWS instead of Apprentice - i got banned for trying to incite a mutiny Very Happy

And then, we stopped supporting play applications together :p

Honestly, it's a little bit of both. I do feel strongly that WotC haven't thought this through enough (or at minimum, did the wrong thing by not explaining their decision), and this is one topic in particular i feel strongly about.
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Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No one is going to convince me that this game isent getting worst and worst as days go by, its simply sad
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Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 70

PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No matter how you view the subject, one thing is for sure: there was no reason to put mythics in magic except to make more money. Since mythics came into magic, the game has become less fun for people who don't have $320 to drop on four cards. The top decks always cost a fair chunk of change, and because of this, wotc is cutting out a huge number of people. I haven't been able to win fnm since lorwyn when I was running mono-white kithkin. In fact, I never lost with that deck. Ever. And do you know what that deck cost me? About $60 tops. These days, we have single cards that cost that much. It's all out of greed, and eventually it will be the end of magic.
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Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1671

PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

magic has always been expensive, now its just a few cards are a lot more expensive than others. and opening boosters was always like playing the lottery it just pays out more if you win now. wizards doesnt make money on the 320$ people drop on jaces, reatailers are going to buy boxes from them anyway, and now they limit the amount they will sell at one time so please stop complaining that they made mythics just for money.
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Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 553

PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well then, explain why they made mythics.

Wizards would do themselves a solid if they just sold singles themselves. They'd eliminate the secondary market that "steals" their money and the more powerful a card is, the cheaper it would be (since more people would buy them and they would print more and more to compensate). Oh wait...then Wizards would lose money...

Still, no one seems to have a qualm with paying so much money FOR PIECES OF FREAKING CARDBOARD. I swear, we should just all go into counterfeiting Magic cards, way more lucrative than making fake money.
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Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 1671

PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the people who design cards don't make money off the retail sales
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Joined: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 186

PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look, even if it is "more popular" right now, the price of standard is going up. However, the overall price of cards is going down. why? Because the pricing system has been changed. Now magic has a simplified "chase rare" system. Instead of the market/playtesters/tournaments deciding the chase rares, we have them neatly laid out for us. That is the true problem with magic.
The most expensive rare in standard is prob the fetch zendikar lands, which hover around 10-15 US$, which makes it the most expensive rare in standard amirite? This has NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE. Let me reiterate, NEVER. There has never been a standard where the most expensive rares are 15 and under. A new reality that players have to grasp is: rares are now only slightly better than uncommons! The average cost has gone down drastically!
Take mythics out of the standard and recalc the cost of all decks in standard. Thats right, EVERY TIER 1 DECK IS NOW UNDER 100$ (give or take a bit, since fetches are still expensive). Imagine if magic was organized this way! Non-mythic standard would be a great format and very fun imo.
However, the mythics countermand this awesome new fact and unbalance it entirely. Now, instead of having the chase rares all in a clump with shitty rares, wotc (for the most part) has separated the key cards in magic. The defining cards, the cards you build decks around, the cards that are auto-includes, the cards that are worth butt-tons, are now shiny red just for you!
Besides the obvious fact that jace is run in every t1 blue deck and primeval is run in every t1 green deck, koth in red, etc, there is still the fact that this is exactly and precisely what maro promised WOULD NOT HAPPEN. It was the first question asked, the least clarified and most subjective answer, and the worst thing that could happen to magic. Why? Becuase I don't give a shit about mythics, i'm so addicted i'll keep playing no matter what, but when the creator and lead designer of the game is blatently lying and gouging the players there is no soul left. Just an empty void where it used to be.
tldr: fuck you wotc
ps: i'm keeping /DC/ in my toolbar in memoriam either way
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Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 553

PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fenris, I feel ya. That's the cool thing about Magic-League is that you don't need money to enjoy the game. If WotC ever took actual legal action to shut this place down, it would be them saying "You can't enjoy this game unless you have money" which is entirely screwed up. One day, WotC is gonna screw up and release a bunch of cheap cards that work well with each other, and then, I can actually afford a competitive deck.

I dunno, competitive Magic is still a fool's dream. I don't wanna pay 400 bucks to win at Magic whenever a new set comes out. Instead, I'll booster draft and sell my cards (that I don't save for deck making) to chumps who'll pay money for em. Speaking of chumps, anyone see how much Grave Titan is going for?
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Joined: 30 Aug 2009
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fenriswolf wrote:
Honestly, the whole thing makes me angry. Here I am, still in high school at 19, going only 2 days a week(I go to an alternative school for people who cant fit in the systems little 4x4 box) my mom working at wal mart full time whenever the hell they scudule her, no other support(single mom) we cant even afford to get my id so that i can get a job, and WotC is making 100$ off a piece of paper. I used to play all the time in junior high and my mom would buy them for me when they were like 3.50 a pack and 8$ a deck(god bless her heart). But we both started to notice a climb in the price. my mom would say "not this time, its too expensive", and i would understand. all my friends were still keeping up with everything, but i gave up around the guildpact era. I quit collecting and playing altogether for awhile. Then I found this site and decided to give it another try. I remembered how much i loved this game, the deckbuilding, testing, and all that good stuff. Now, i can see it starting to crumble in front of my very eyes, and its all over greed i fear. But, this not new to anyone, nor is anything safe from the cluches of the doller bill and his evil cohorts greed and big business.

Deckcheck, your actions are admirable, and you will be sorely missed. Crying or Very sad

get a job, bum
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