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Limited Pointing from Wizards

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Reply to topic Forum Index -> Standard (T2) Decks

Do you like to play limited?
 80%  [ 16 ]
 20%  [ 4 ]
Total Votes : 20

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Joined: 03 Jul 2005
Posts: 399

PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

loop is a 1
envangalize is a 2.5
whelk is a 4+
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Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 231

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:02 am    Post subject: Re: Limited Pointing from Wizards Reply with quote

Russell_Nash wrote:
Spirit Loop 2.7 - I value removal pretty high in limited and this can often function as soft removal on top of helping an evasive creature race life.

Spirit Loop can only target creatures you control, so its not going to do what you want it to do. Temporal Isolation is so much better, as is Detainment Spell (which it + Knight of the Holy Nimbus = indestructable creature Smile )

I believe I gave it a 0.5
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Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 170

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:18 am    Post subject: Re: Limited Pointing from Wizards Reply with quote

nice tech Very Happy
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Joined: 02 May 2006
Posts: 338

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are right, counter spells are bad in limited, but when that last counter comes off of Ivory Giant or Greater Gargadon and you plop down Draining Whelk, you most likely just won yourself the game.

Draining Whelk is Card Advantage and Threat rolled into one. I gave it a 4.0
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Level 3 Judge

Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 277

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sonicqaz wrote:
Draining Whelk is Card Advantage and Threat rolled into one. I gave it a 4.0

That's not accurate scale-wise though, since 4.0 stands for 'I'd seriously consider playing this as my only card of the colour' and Draining Whelk, costing UU, should never be the only blue card you play.
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Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 2525
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

disintigrate is a obvious 5.0, you get this card you WILL splash it
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Joined: 28 Mar 2006
Posts: 264
Location: New Gunsqu

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah disintegrate is def. 5.0

whelk is like 3.0
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Level 1 Judge

Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 119

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

disintegrat is not a 5.0! it might be 4.5 because it is the best card in ts for limited, but a card that gets a 5.0 rating is a card that you play in your limited deck no matter what, and for disintegrate at least some splash tools are needed.

some time ago, there was an article about wizards own limited rating for cards, and r&d only gave 2 cards in the history of magic a 5.0 rating. that were masticore and umezawa's jitte. both are artifacts and can be played in any color combination. so disintegrate is f****** good but it's not a 5.0
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 859

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Disintegrate is not a 5.0 for the same reason that Demonfire and Savage Twister weren't 5.0s. Forcing another color, even for an amazing card, will lose you consistency. And that possible loss of consistency means you can't give it a 5.0. I think the 4.3 is approximately correct. Perhaps closer to 4.5. But not a 5.

What was that you said about feeling strongly about removal? Evangelize is removal. If Evangelize said "4W, Target player sacrifices a creature, buyback 2WW" it'd still be playable in limited. The fact that you get to keep the creature they choose to get rid of makes it that much sweeter. I'd give at the very least a 3.0, probably closer to a 3.2 or 3.3.

Draining Whelk is incredibly good, but UU does hurt it. I'd give it about the same score as Evangelize.

And I'd pick Scion of the Ur-Dragon over Locket of Yesterdays, unless somehow I weirdly got into a universe where Locket of Yesterdays showed up in my Cs x 3 draft pool.
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Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 119

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Way to miss the Limited forum.

Also, the Whelk is certainly a reason to play blue; there aren't that many dragons in the format.
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Joined: 15 Oct 2005
Posts: 239

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

because you all care about what I have to say, I'll list my rating for each card below. agree or disagree... tbh I'll read what you said, take it on board, and probably just ignore you, especially if you flamed me.

Castle Raptors: 2.9. I can count the number of times I have drafted this, been white, and not played it on one hand. If I have 1-2 and a temporary isolation I will consider splashing them in any deck. It's a 5 mana 3/3, which is amazing, which on defence blocks pretty much anything, including ephemeron. That's pretty decent for a flier. I would probably still play it if it couldn't fly.

Spirit Loop: 0.4. It's bad. Don't play it. Even on an evasion creature, I would rather have a 1/1 chump blocker in a race. The only possible exception is putting this on an ephemeron, but then you seriously have to worry about the depth of your pool. I give it a tentative 0.4 because I've lost to it before, and maybe I'm missing something, but the loss was probably due to not drawing relevant spells rather than anything else.

Evangelize: 1.3. It's a powerful effect. However, time spiral draft is one of the fastest formats ever, and this card just doesn't cut it in most decks, either because it's too slow, or just not good enough (forget about buying this back ever in draft). Incidentally, if it was buyback for only saccing a creature, I wouldn't go near it, I never played twisted justice.

Fathom Seer: 2.5. Card advantage is good in limited, the fact that he trades well with other 2 power creatures or vs sudden shock/grapeshot is a bonus. Getting this guy with an active spellshaper on the board is ugly. The 10% of the time I don't play him is the 10% of the time I play blue with less than 7 islands.

Riftwing Cloudscate: 2.7. A simple comparison with Ogre Savant will do here I think. This is mono colour, for the same effect, on a 2/2 flier (better than a 3/2), AND you can suspend it early on. AND it can target lands, AND this format has momentary blink, AND suspend, AND echo. Ogre Savant was a first pick in RGD, go figure.

Draining Whelk: 2.3. Yes it's powerful, in the same way that say Kaerveck is powerful, it does cost 6 mana, and can be useless if your opponent knows it is in your deck. That said, countering even a Strangling Soot with this card can be really good, and he can swing games. He's pretty bad in the WU 15 land decks though, so gets a lower ranking than Fathom Seer. I'd probably normally take him over seer, but only because I would expect to see more seers as the draft progresses. You probably won't see another whelk.

EDIT: bah, I didn't realise how long the list was, screw this I'll finish up later.
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Joined: 31 Dec 2004
Posts: 178

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

disintegrate is a 5.0, hands down. if you don't splash it you're a moron. you will win far more games with a splashed disintegrate then not splashing it to maintain consistancy.
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Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 65

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you all gave too high scores to cards (those who gave 5.0: that's reserved for "broken" cards, and I saw none even approaching broken.)

For reference, I gave a 3.9 to Disintegrate as my highest score by far.

Most of the solid maindeckable cards were in the 2 to 2.8 range.

Whelk is not above 3, you shouldn't auto-include it in every blue deck, you have to pay attention to the mana curve you know Smile though it makes my deck about 80% of the time.

Spirit Loop was definitely below 2, and so is Evangelize IMO (it sucks in limited, you don't have the chance of clearing the board too often to maximize its value, and forget about buying it back.)

Lotus & Locket are in the 0.something value, I wouldn't give a 0 to Locket because of the chance of having multiples of a card might make me maindeck it someday (although in something other than TSP-TSP-TSP it's definitely a 0).
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