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Player-organized multi-round drafts

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Reply to topic Forum Index -> General Magic-League Issues

Should ML allow player-organized multi-round drafts?
 90%  [ 19 ]
 9%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 21

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Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:47 pm    Post subject: Player-organized multi-round drafts Reply with quote

I think it would be in ML's best interest to allow players to self-organize multi-round drafts.

I have been told informally that (1) doing so can get one banned, (2) pming about doing so can get one banned, (3) playing league matches while in a player-organized multi-round draft can also get one banned, and (4) judges will have judge status revoked if they participate in player-organized multi-round drafts.


I love ML and want it to thrive. Having a spot where people can self-organize multi-round drafts and continue using ML's rating system can only increase the popularity of the site. Preventing people from using ML to do this will just help competitors.

I am puzzled that allowing players to self-organize multi-round drafts is not welcomed with open arms. Obviously there is player demand for more multi-round drafts (in fact, why the heck should that not be the norm?). Also obviously, there are not enough judges who either can host Netdraft or want the bother of dealing with getting a third party to host drafts.

Having those who can host tell people who are paired for multiple rounds seems a no brainer.

Perhaps I am misinformed and there is much more going on, but this is how it seems to me from my observations.

If you have strong feelings on this one way or the other or more information to add, please respond!
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Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 579

PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

why does this matter really..? Just play someone else from the draft if they also want to play afterwards.
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Joined: 09 Jan 2010
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me, the primary oddity is the banning of the Single Match feature for these tournaments. To the best of my understanding, the claim is that by using it for #CENSORED tournaments, we are somehow undermining the ratings system by removing the necessity of a judge. I've even heard of the analogy given that it's as if we wanted to use DCI points for a side event at a Grand Prix.

However, that has always been the case. I'm sure, at this moment, I can go to #magic-league and find someone to play T2 with me for league points. Furthermore, (if Trivial's draft ever fires), I'm sure I can find someone in it to play a league match with me. I don't need a judge to permit me to do this and while I suppose I could call a judge to enforce a violation of the rules, I don't know anyone who actually has went to #judges4you for an 8K match. If I'm actually allowed to do this, I have a lot of people to report for Slow Play. Razz

Currently, I'm allowed to challenge a player to a single match if the draft IP was first posted on #draft4you and not #CENSORED. I'm even allowed to manually find a Round 2 (and a Round 3) and play those matches for league points. Even if over half of the people are also idling in #CENSORED and I challenge one of them for the league points, I am following the rules. However, as soon as the tournament is entered in #CENSORED's bot, it is against the rules to do so.

If #CENSORED's tournaments truly endanger Magic-League's livelihood (or whatever), then please talk to Nikoleye so #draft4you can have a similar bot for casual 8K play. It is extremely helpful. It should be relatively obvious that a 3-round draft is far more instructive and fun than a single round. Furthermore, it also removes the necessity of needing to idle within the NetDraft program which has a tendency to time out on many ISPs.

Magic-League is a great website that provides an actual alternative to MTGO (for whatever reason. Personally, I can't actually run MTGO since I burned out my laptop's video card. Razz) I hope you guys can resolve this issue in a satisfactory manner that improves M-L.

*Note: I manually censored all references to the channel in question.
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Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 261

PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, my response to this is going to be pretty long, so be prepared.

1. The relationship that Magic-League has with drafts is nebulous and ill-defined, at best. The founder of the channel, to the best of my knowledge (I was never approached), did nothing to find a way to work with staff so that we could set up a system that is mutually beneficial. Instead, they just founded a channel that can only be viewed as competition with a service we already offer. This is akin to walking into a GP saying "tournament in the next room!", when you should try to work with the event organizer to get your event to run. It's very bad business.

2. The channel in question has not limited themselves to draft tournaments. I was idling in that channel for a total of 2 minutes, and I saw advertisements for two constructed tournaments. This DIRECTLY competes with a service that we offer.

3. There are quite a few reasons why we don't allow nonjudges to run tournaments on the site. One of which being that we wouldn't have any judges otherwise. Since we have no paid staff, the only perk that we can offer somebody for becoming a judge is the ability to run whatever format tournament they want, whenever they want. If we were to allow others to run tournaments, there would be no incentive to become a judge. No judges = no ruling; no judges = no trials or masters.

4. We do not allow private tournaments on the site. The reason for this primarily has to do with judges forming minis in team channels only. It creates bad situations for team points when private tournaments can be run (not an issue with 8k), and it's bad for the league to hold tournaments in some private backroom where not everyone has a chance to enter.

If the channel founder is interested in finding a way to make it work, we will sit down with him and try to figure something out. From our point of view, given the way the situation unfolded, this system was set up to intentionally skirt the rules that we have in place while gathering a playerbase necessary to start a new league.
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Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:46 pm    Post subject: Excellent Reply with quote


This sounds like a great plan.

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Joined: 09 Jan 2010
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since the primary concern for league matches was 16K judge abuse, does that mean it is okay to play 8K matches from these drafts?
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Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 324

PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to follow on from niknight's post, to the best of my knowledge the issue has never been running multiple-round drafts, but rather running them as a tournament. I'm all for negotiating a solution between both parties (and savino1234 and myself both agreed on this yesterday), and am more than happy to sit down and sort it out Smile
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Level 4 Judge

Joined: 19 Mar 2005
Posts: 1402
Location: Weiterstad

PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

People want more prizes. People want more minis. People want better judges.
People don't want to do the work for it themselves however.
Want something from magic-league that it does not provide yet, then become a judge.

Do I need to say anything else ?


Want something? Do something!

I do not see "minimakers" who aren't judges being entitled to run tournaments on magic-league soon.
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Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 696

PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the primary trouble is that it's difficult to actually become a judge. You get a maximum of 4 chances per year and if you don't pass, you have no idea why or what you did wrong(thus you'll probably continue making the same mistake). This would be fine if every judge on the site stayed and judged, but of course people come and go. Right now, we're on a down trend with very few judges actively hosting minis. The ones that are hosting are running just enough 8 maxes to make their quota and if you blink, you miss it. And so people are looking for a way around that.

I think you'll find that the people in the other channel would drop what they are doing there immediately for a real M-L mini if one were available. And obviously they still want to play in M-L -- why else would they want to play each round of their unofficial tournaments as M-L single matches? For many of them, there is no point in playing if they can't get some rating out of it.

As niknight said, it IS similar to walking into a GP and shouting that you are drafting in the next room. But there are circumstances where that is acceptable. Certainly there have been many times at my FNM's where people didn't feel like playing t2 and asked around to see if they had enough interested to be able to draft.

So while I agree that they went about this in the wrong way, I don't believe that you actually have a competing channel. And certainly after the ridiculous lawsuit threats from WotC, I think you would recognize that people are just looking for a place to play.
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Joined: 14 Mar 2010
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For what it's worth, my take on the situation: (longish)

The service that M-L offers for draft, and thereby limited, is bad. Drafts fire very infrequently, judges never want to organize them, and since player organized 3-rounders are frowned upon, we get a very warped draft format. People regularly pass bombs and draft in a way that defies logic when playing a traditional paper 3 round draft.

Furthermore, the fact that drafts are so infrequent and always one round leads to it being not taken very seriously. I mean, for someone looking to gain rating it takes so much longer than sealed to draft a deck, build it, then play most likely one round for minimal points. Very often I've just had my opponent in a draft ditch me since he decided to join a Sealed Mini on the main site, wasting all my time. It's the main reason I try to league all the time in #draft4you, so people at least have SOME incentive to stick around.

There are other side effects; draft is the preferred form of limited play for high level events; yet in M-L because of the current situation a player's limited rating is mostly comprised of sealed play; this deviates from paper and undermines credibility.

Bottom line, draft service sucks on M-L, and probably for very good reasons. And I'm not here to whine about it and demand change: like it was mentioned, if I wanted it so badly I should do something about it. The point is that someone DID do something about it: #CENSORED provides a much better draft experience. It provides cohesion, eliminates netdraft idle need, gives incentive to play more sensibly, etc. I really don't see how it has anything to do with "skirting the rules" of m-l, at all.

I respect and understand how important it is for M-L to maintain its rules and structure; without it, respectability and prestige in events would decline and ratings would mean less, as well as probably a host of other problems. However, I also think #CENSORED does not compete with M-L at all, at least in draft, and provides a (much needed) service that players welcome.
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Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 45

PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Certain people in power need to lighten up. The channel was created for three round drafts and just grew into more. Why oppose something new and wonderful that players obviously want?
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Joined: 12 Apr 2011
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First off...

Although I'm not the biggest voice around here, I'd like to mention that, while people in this channel may have been going against the rules of M-L somewhat, I would also like to say that the this channel was not made for, nor is meant for, breaking rules. It's for people to have fun, practice drafting like people play in the pro tour, and get experience.
I am in favor of this channel and, although I'm what you call a "common draft abandoner," I still hope to help out with keeping this channel going.
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Joined: 18 May 2011
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know I wasn't planning on posting here but these guys have inspired me and I want to make a quick statement to sum up the reasons for #CENSORED's existence. It's nothing new and I'm probably just restating someone else's point but the reason why it exists is because magic-league inherently has its faults.

So long as there is a huge unfulfilled demand for tournaments in magic-league, #CENSORED will exist to fulfill that demand. The reason for this unfulfilled demand is for many reasons. By no means am I trying to put down magic-league by stating these reasons I'm merely looking to better it by pointing out its flaws:

The first and main reason why there is an unfulfilled demand for tournaments is the lack of players who are allowed to host them. The majority of players who can host don't host. Secondly to be able to host you must overcome several barriers in place, which to some are trivial, but to the vast majority of magic-league players are simply insurmountable.

The third reason this demand goes unfulfilled as stated in this thread numerous times is the lack of three round draft support. I don't need to beat a dead horse and mention these reasons when I can cite all these gentlemen's points regarding them.

Anyway looking towards the future of magic-league and #CENSORED I have much hope for the two of them. Hope for magic-league because I believe it will begin to thrive and will re-explore its roots as the single best place online to play truly FREE magic. And hope for #CENSORED because I want the need for its existence to cease. When that happens #CENSORED will have fulfilled its purpose and will no longer be needed.
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Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Posts: 172

PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Afaik Azania works on a Draft Application for the new site, which would make the process of hosting a draft a lot more easy, and thus likely increase the amount of draft-minis.

I also dont get why everyone is madly in love with the rating system?
When im participating in minis, i want to play against people who dont give a shit about the rating System! (think about this).
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Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 553

PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Staff of Magic-League,

You're here for the same reason that we are: we love the game of Magic. Your level of commitment to this site is a reflection of your skill and free time, and while the things you do are always appreciated by the community, this does not mean that you are owed anything.

Let's take a moment to reflect on the issue here: if I were to walk into your house, where you were holding a tournament, and make my own tournaments in the next room over without your permission, that would be a bad thing, indeed. However, who pays the bills here? Without us, the community, there would be no house. We support this site by our collective traffic, and this traffic translates into advertising revenue that keeps the server hosts happy.

I'm sure you've noticed that so far this year, traffic to your site is half what it was last year. The usual influx of people over the summer months has not come. If you look at the 'latest tournaments' page, you'll notice anywhere between 10-12 tournaments per day, a tenth of what ML used to offer in it's hayday. People come here for many reasons, but chiefly among them is to get the best deck-testing and practice possible: tournament play.

With so few tournaments being hosted by ML judges, the community has taken it upon itself to hold it's own, thanks to the initiative of Nikoleye. With the ability to hold tournaments on demand, more and more people will come, and those people will bring more people, and so on.

As you can see, this is wonderful for the community, we're helping to keep our home open for business.

Now, some of the staff have made claims about ratings fraud. It is very sad that our friends in the community who have offered so much of their time without asking for anything in return would feel so threatened that they would not only stretch the very fabric of logic to it's limit, but would also threaten punishment against members of our community.

You see, it is within the rules of Magic-League that people may challenge each other to single matches in various formats (and hopefully, one day, sealed will be among those formats, gogo Azania!). Nikoleye did nothing but allow people to organize their single matches.

Lastly, something that may or may not have been touched on: the possibility of these player-created tournaments adding extra strain on the judge's channel. If this were a problem, then please remove the challenge feature from the website.

In conclusion, to quote someone who has done much for this community, "Want something? Do something!"

We did Flippi, we did.

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