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Response to Luminarch Ascension counter



 
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chakal-PT



Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 166

PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:37 pm    Post subject: Response to Luminarch Ascension counter Reply with quote

Hi

If I have an Luminarch Ascension with 3 counters and didn't suffer any loss of life on my opponent turn, can he use a Naturalize on it in response to me adding the fourth counter on the Luminarch?

One way or another, I didn't get why my opponent waited till the end of turn to use his Naturalize... Any counter-spell I could had, I could play it anyway, and I was going to spend my mana on Angels only after adding the fourth counter, so... He could try to use his Naturalize anytime, but decided to use in response to me adding the last counter on my Luminarch Ascension....

Anyway...
My question is, can he do it? or did he simply forget to use it, and when he saw me adding the fourth counter and tapping lands for 6 angels, decided to say that he wanted to destroy the Lumi in response to the last counter...

Thanks for your help,

cHaKaL
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Farseer
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 335

PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adding the counter is part of the resolution of the triggered ability. Your opponent can play Naturalise when he has priority after the ability finished resolving but you can get a few angel tokens if you have the mana.

Your opponent should cast Naturalise when the "add a counter" triggered ability is on the stack.

Your opponent waited until end of turn, as it is usually the correct play to wait until the last possible second before doing something. In this case your opponent waited too long (or there was mis-communication between the players and he wanted to respond to the triggered ability but you put the counter on too quickly.)
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chakal-PT



Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 166

PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was able to add a counter on Lumi, tap 8 lands and put 4 angels on the battlefield before he said something... Obviously he had lots of time to say "wait" at least, but he waited to see what was I planing to do... Anyway, it was a casual game, and my only problem was if he really could do that play in response to counter or not...

As you said, its a legal play, and even with a bad timing, its fine to me... it was just a casual game, just for fun, so...

Thanks for your help!
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GoneBananas
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 329

PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

im not seeing why it is bad timing. Playing it anytime before wouldnt make sense as there is no reason to. you might tap out for a spell or something so not only is it legal it is also correct to wait.
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magicman85



Joined: 22 Aug 2009
Posts: 555

PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You need to pass him priority before the Luminarch Ascension "add a counter" ability resolves. Obviously you didn't.
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Hardtrack



Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 651

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He can (and should in most cases) wait for the triggered ability that adds the fourth counter to go on the stack. Then, in response to it, he Naturalizes your Luminarch Ascension. His Naturalize resolves first, the Ascension never gets its fourth counter and you can't use it.
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xJudicatorx



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 696

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed, you might have forgotten your trigger and allowed him to save that naturalize for a better time.
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Farseer
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 335

PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chakal-PT wrote:
I was able to add a counter on Lumi, tap 8 lands and put 4 angels on the battlefield before he said something...


That is bad practice.

DO NOT assume silence means acceptance of one action.

You should attempt to add the counter (resolve the triggered ability), ask "ok?" and wait for him to respond.

Then try to put an Angel into the battlefield (resolve the activated ability), and again wait for him to respond.

Make sure your opponent is at least nodding, saying yes or otherwise agreeing that your spells/abilities are resolving.

---

There is a real chance a judge (after further investigation, etc.) would find that you didn't give your opponent a chance to respond and would rule you rewind the game.

Lesson: Always get your opponent to ok EVERYTHING.
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chakal-PT



Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 166

PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Farseer wrote:
chakal-PT wrote:
I was able to add a counter on Lumi, tap 8 lands and put 4 angels on the battlefield before he said something...


That is bad practice.

DO NOT assume silence means acceptance of one action.

You should attempt to add the counter (resolve the triggered ability), ask "ok?" and wait for him to respond.

Then try to put an Angel into the battlefield (resolve the activated ability), and again wait for him to respond.

Make sure your opponent is at least nodding, saying yes or otherwise agreeing that your spells/abilities are resolving.

---

There is a real chance a judge (after further investigation, etc.) would find that you didn't give your opponent a chance to respond and would rule you rewind the game.

Lesson: Always get your opponent to ok EVERYTHING.


Yes, I understand and agree... Just let me explain my point of view...
When my opponent says "End of my Turn" and nothing else, I assume that he agrees with the counter that Lumi is going to get... Usually, in casual games, people says something when they want to do something at end of their turn! "EOT", or in this case "before adding counter", ect, etc... Maybe I should ask before assume that I can add the counter, but usually I just wait a little bit after my opponent says "End of my turn", and if nothing happen, I add the counter...

And by the way... Lumi says "At the beginning of each opponent’s end step..." And he didn't even said anything and went directly to "end of my turn"... That's one more reason that make me think that he just forgot, and just remembered to play his Naturalize when I started to add the last counter...

Anyway, I understand what you are trying to say, and I know that that is the correct way to do things... The thing is, in casual games, players take a lot more "shortcuts" during the game, if you know what I mean... =)
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Clariax
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chakal-PT wrote:

When my opponent says "End of my Turn" and nothing else, I assume that he agrees with the counter that Lumi is going to get... Usually, in casual games, people says something when they want to do something at end of their turn! "EOT", or in this case "before adding counter", ect, etc... Maybe I should ask before assume that I can add the counter, but usually I just wait a little bit after my opponent says "End of my turn", and if nothing happen, I add the counter...

And by the way... Lumi says "At the beginning of each opponent’s end step..." And he didn't even said anything and went directly to "end of my turn"... That's one more reason that make me think that he just forgot, and just remembered to play his Naturalize when I started to add the last counter...



Saying "End my turn" or "Done" or "Go" or similar is a shortcut for offering to pass priority back and forth until the opponent has priority on the end step. And unless the opponent specifies otherwise, if he then does something, hes' doing it at that time. If he wishes to interrupt the shortcut and play something earlier, he's free to do so, but he'd need to specify that he's doing so.

In this case, the player says "End my turn," so the opponent not wishing to interrupt the shortcut means the game is now at the point where the opponent first gets priority on the end step. At this point Luminarch Ascension's triggered ability is already on the stack, and the active player has already passed priority with that trigger on the stack. So, if the nonactive player then passes priority, the trigger resolves and the Ascension gets its counter. Basically, by saying "End my turn," the active player is already choosing to not respond to the trigger.

From the MTR:
Quote:

"The statement "Go" (and equivalents such as "Your turn" and "Done") offers to keep passing priority until an opponent has priority in the end step. Opponents are assumed to be acting then unless they specify otherwise."
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