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2 Similar "As it enters the battlefield..." questi



 
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CharlesT



Joined: 11 Oct 2010
Posts: 67

PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:28 pm    Post subject: 2 Similar "As it enters the battlefield..." questi Reply with quote

1st question :
Let's say I cast and resolve a Phyrexian Metamorph and I chose to have it enter the battlefield as a copy of Batterskull. Will the Living Weapon ability ("As it enters the battlefield...") work and will the Metamorph, once I get priority next, will be attached to a 0/0 Black Germ token?

2nd question :
Let's say I have a Phyrexian Metamorph on the battlefield. He is presently a Batter-Skull. I resolve a Clone from my hand unto the battlefield. May I have it enter the battlefield as a copy of the original state of Phyrexian Metamorph (it being originaly a creature) to then use Phyrexian Metamorph ability to enter the battlefield as a copy of Batteskull?

The main-question I have and want to understand is using a clone-like "as it enters the battlefield" ability to transform it can I use the "as it enters the battlefield" ability of its new form or is there a priority/layer/other ruling that prevents a permanent from have multiple "as it enters the battlefield" ability one after the other? Plz explain as I am trying to comprehend and get better.
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moscowdemon
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Posts: 297

PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scenario 1:
It will enter the battlefield already as a Batterskull. So the Living Weapon ability will in fact trigger and will be followed. When it resolves (the Living Weapon ability), you will in fact have your "Batterskull" attached to a 0/0 Black Germ token.

This leads into scenario 2.

Scenario 2:
Phyrexian Metamorph actually isn't itself anymore, it is pretty much exactly a Batterskull in ever way, shape and form. It isn't a creature, so Clone could not copy Batterskull.
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xJudicatorx



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 696

PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Note on scenario 2: If you Clone a Clone, you don't get a second "as this enters the battlefield" trigger. In other words, it would just be a 0/0.
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moscowdemon
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Posts: 297

PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you Clone a Clone(2), then Clone will become exactly what Clone(2) is copying.
There is no way to Clone a 0/0 that I can think of.
So no, that note is incorrect barring unlikely circumstances.

editted to insert rules relating to...
706.3. The copy's copiable values become the copied information, as modified by the copy's status (see rule 110.6). Objects that copy the object will use the new copiable values.
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CharlesT



Joined: 11 Oct 2010
Posts: 67

PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2 things.
1 - Why would a metamorph entering as a copy of batteskull may have the batterskull's living weapon ability work and a clone entering the battlefield as a metamorph wouldn't have the ability of the metamorph work?

2 - Back a couple of years, it seemed (a judge ruled it to me in a event) that when you mirorweave during a turn and then played a clone afterwards you could chose to make it enter the battlefield as a copy of the original state of a creature changed by mirrorweave. A.E. There are 1 llanowar elf and a lotus cobra under my control. I Mirrorweave chosing lotus cobra as target so that every creature becomes a lotus cobra until end of turn. I then fallow with Clone and try to copy a llanowar elf original state of a now lotus cobra. Was this rulling good, and would it apply to the case of the clone trying to copy a phyrexian metamorph being a copy of batterskull?
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Clariax
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CharlesT wrote:
Why would a metamorph entering as a copy of batteskull may have the batterskull's living weapon ability work and a clone entering the battlefield as a metamorph wouldn't have the ability of the metamorph work?


When an object is a copy of something else, the characteristics of whatever it is copying overwrite the original characteristics. Copy a Batterskull with a metamorph and the living weapon ability will trigger because the metamorph will have the living weapon ability. If you have a metamorph on the battlefield that's a copy of a grizzly bears and you clone it, the clone will be a grizzly bears (though an artifact). The metamorph is no longer a metamorph so doesn't have any "ability of the metamorph" to work.

CharlesT wrote:

2 - Back a couple of years, it seemed (a judge ruled it to me in a event) that when you mirorweave during a turn and then played a clone afterwards you could chose to make it enter the battlefield as a copy of the original state of a creature changed by mirrorweave. A.E. There are 1 llanowar elf and a lotus cobra under my control. I Mirrorweave chosing lotus cobra as target so that every creature becomes a lotus cobra until end of turn. I then fallow with Clone and try to copy a llanowar elf original state of a now lotus cobra. Was this rulling good, and would it apply to the case of the clone trying to copy a phyrexian metamorph being a copy of batterskull?


If you have a llanowar elves that's a copy of a lotus cobra due to mirrorweave and you clone it, the clone will be a lotus cobra, not a llanowar elves. Making it a copy of a llanowar elves isn't an option.
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CharlesT



Joined: 11 Oct 2010
Posts: 67

PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Clariax, thank you, althought I've misread Living Weapon, thinking it was "as it enters" and not "when it enters.." stupid me.

However, on clone Oracle text out of Gatherer I read :
"Any enters-the-battlefield abilities of the copied creature will trigger when Clone enters the battlefield. Any "as [this creature] enters the battlefield" or "[this creature] enters the battlefield with" abilities of the chosen creature will also work."

AND

If the chosen creature is copying something else (for example, if the chosen creature is another Clone), then your Clone enters the battlefield as whatever the chosen creature copied.

Thanks all, that seals an argument and I get the cash outta it. Smile


One last argument for the lolz... If I have a Batterskull and a Tempered Steel in play. I resolve a Metamorph and chose himself as the creature/artifact to be. I then resolve a Clone and chose to make it enter as a copy of metamorph which I then chose to make enter as a copy of Batterskull. Would that work?

Smile
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DaveLombJr



Joined: 07 Nov 2010
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No it won't work the trigger abilities uses "When, Whenever and At the beginning". The wording As suggest that you have to choose it at the moment you cast the spell E.G.
I announce a Phyrexian Metamorph, pay its mana cost and then after my opponent decides it resolves Im allowed to choose the creature/artifact im going to clone, my opponent can't respond to this action because it won't cause to pass priority after the selection has been made.
I hope my answer helped you Smile
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Clariax
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CharlesT wrote:

One last argument for the lolz... If I have a Batterskull and a Tempered Steel in play. I resolve a Metamorph and chose himself as the creature/artifact to be. I then resolve a Clone and chose to make it enter as a copy of metamorph which I then chose to make enter as a copy of Batterskull. Would that work?

Smile


If you have a phyrexian metamorph on the battlefield not copying anything (surviving because something is boosting its toughness, like tempered steel), you could choose to copy the metamorph with a clone, then get to choose something else to copy due to the metamorph's ability.
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