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Elementals for the kill


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Ggerg



Joined: 04 Sep 2005
Posts: 632

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

no
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Talroma



Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ggerg wrote:
no


yea no
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PsyK



Joined: 24 Jan 2006
Posts: 130

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Totally the best elementals idea at the moment is fulminator mage + reveliark. Yeah you're not doing the ld when it counts most, but denying between 3 and 5 land in a longer game will win!
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Vedrfolner



Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2325

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rite of Consumption, Torrent of Souls, Lightning Axe, Dash Hopes, Brighthearth Banneret, Ashenmoor Gouger, Ashenmoor Liege and Nova Chaser are all bad cards.

I advice you to use better cards. BR elementals can be ok, but one of the best elementals is Mulldrifter, so I think that an elemental deck should be UBR.

4 Flamekin Harbinger
4 Smokebraider
4 Mulldrifter
4 Shriekmaw

4 Nameless Inversion

Start there, and use only good cards. With 8+ 5cc spells, make sure you have 24 lands. 4 of them should probably be Primal Beyond.
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Vedrfolner



Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2325

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brighthearth banneret reduces 1 mana cost, Smokebraider accelerates and fixes 2 mana. The difference between a 3rd turn hardcasted Shriekmaw/Mulldrifter and a 4th turn ditto, is huge. In turn 4 you could as well just do other stuff and play them the next turn.

Mulldrifter draws you two cards and provides a 2/2 flier. That is very good. A 3 for 1 for just 5 mana.

Nova Chaser is terrible. If you have the perfect draw and the opponent does nothing, sure a 10/2 trample which you can deal 10 damage with and if he is killed you get the creature back is fantastic... But that won't happen. Ever. Not against good players behind good decks.

Dash Hopes is not good in any deck. No card which lets the opponent choose the lesser of two evils is good. The reason is that since they choose the option which is not optimal for you, the card is never optimal and should therefore not be played.

Lightning Axe is either a 1 for 2 trade (bad), or a 6 mana instant which may kill a creature (bad).

Rite of Consumption is a 0 for 2 trade (bad), and should only be played if it can be a surprise last damage which wins you the game. The gain life thingy is therefore of no actual consequence.

Torrent of Souls is a 1 for 1 trade (ok) which can also give a major bonus to other creatures, so the card in itself is not very bad. It can actually be a nice win condition, but I would play max 2 of it, as its casting cost is high and it would be good only if you have a couple of creatures in play already, and then get another in play with haste. I see you have two and some cip creatures (shriekmaw) so it is okay.

Ashenmoor Gouger has a difficult and limited casting cost and cannot block. Sure, it is 4/4 but the only thing it can do is attack or just be a waste of mana or space. If the opponent can kill it or otherwise deal with it with little loss of card advantage, which will often be the case even if it is dropped turn 3, then there must be hundreds of better creatures to put in a BR deck.

Ashenmoor Liege is the weakest of the lieges. Since it is 4/1, anything can block it, so its additional ability is usually of no consequence. It also has a difficult casting cost. The pump ability is good, but circumstantial.


Last edited by Vedrfolner on Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Vedrfolner



Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2325

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want to go that aggro, I think mono red elemental shamans is a better option.

Look at the deck section here, and the older threads with that name, the decklists there should already be tested and close to optimized. When you go all those weenies, Mulldrifter and Shriekmaw aren't that good - such cards belong to aggrocontrol.

Here is an old URb decklist I ran some time ago, with some updates:

4 Flamekin Harbinger
4 Smokebraider
4 Incandescent Soulstoke
4 Mulldrifter
3 Shriekmaw
2 Æthersnipe
2 Glarewielder
2 Spitebellows

4 Lash Out
4 Incinerate

4 Coldsteel Heart

4 Primal Beyond
4 Shivan Reef
4 Vivid Crag
4 Reflecting Pool
7 Mountain

as you see it isn't very fast, but the creature kill allows for some staying power

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
18 [CS] Snow-Covered Mountain
4 [MOR] Mutavault

// Creatures
2 [CS] Martyr of Ashes
3 [SHM] Intimidator Initiate
4 [LRW] Flamekin Harbinger
2 [LRW] Ashling the Pilgrim
2 [MOR] Sunflare Shaman
4 [LRW] Smokebraider
4 [MOR] Rage Forger
4 [LRW] Incandescent Soulstoke

// Spells
4 [10E] Shock
4 [10E] Incinerate
3 [TSP] Rift Bolt
2 [SHM] Flame Javelin

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [CS] Martyr of Ashes
SB: 4 [CS] Skred
SB: 4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
SB: 2 [TSP] Sulfurous Blast
SB: 3 [SHM] Vexing Shusher

This one, however, is very fast. Your deck finds itself somewhere in the middle of those two.
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Vedrfolner



Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2325

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:20 pm    Post subject: Re: ok note - call me stupid Reply with quote

LoCCoToKo wrote:
call me stupid but man i like demigd too much so i made some corrections

land - same

creatures
instead of sunflare - 4x demigod of revenge

instants or socery

instead of javelin - 3x lighting axes

lighting axes help for me in the sense there will always be cards i dont need in hand.

hate me if you must but yeah just i can't get ride of my favourite finisher


Demigod of Revenge is good, but doesn't fit as well as you might think in aggro. It is better in black and/or red control, since it is best when you get to play the second one, and an aggressive deck typically don't want the games to last that long.
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Vedrfolner



Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2325

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Either goblins and gargadon (lots of creatures, but plays like a sort of control deck), or just strong, red and black cards - killing creatures and some hand disruption. The key to those colours is to use cards that provide card advantage, otherwise you will run out of cards. Probably snow land base for Skred and Scrying Sheets.
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Vedrfolner



Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2325

PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would take out Bladewhirl, Berserker, Titan and S.Exemplar for more Shriekmaw, Mulldrifter and Spitebellow etc. Champion is a terrible drawback, and "big targets for Incandescent Soulstoke ability" is a fragile strategy.

Regarding your spells, I think that Coldsteel Heart is a lot more useful than Manamorphose and Rite of Consumption.

You would have good use of Makeshift Mannequin and more 2-power creatures for Reveillark.
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Vedrfolner



Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2325

PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hmm will Eventide cycle out Coldsnap? I thought that nothing cycles out until next set comes out, in like 3 months. I know that the new thing with 4 smaller sets are replacing the former 3+1 cycle, but as far as I know Eventide in itself does nothing to Coldsnap.

So July20th Standard is 10th, CS, TS block, LW block
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Vedrfolner



Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2325

PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LoCCoToKo wrote:
oh ok but still 3 months is not long.


In competitive Magic, 3 months is an eternity...
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Vedrfolner



Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2325

PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LoCCoToKo wrote:
but in truth i only play supreme on soulstone, the rest of the champions i play on the harbinger more than anything as a creature killer or become defensive with titan. Personally i don't think champion is bad when you got creature to plac it on. Why you dont like blade whirl its only one red and i have to have cretures from the start. From what it seems like your advising me to be more defensive and produce more mana. I don't really use soulstone till later in the game and smoke braider is a plus especially against a burn deck. But look at this turn one harbinger look for titan. Turn two smokebraider. Turn three titan now i have a 7/7 in play but that is situational and i always think what deck i am paying against. As for rites just using it as extra burn but might just play more shreimaw or spite bellow. Manamorphe is great cause of my mana issues at times or with my harbinger. Harbinger find card, manamorphe play card. Very Happy


Yes Champion isn't a bad drawback if you have creatures in play, and it is actually not a drawback at all if you got creatures like Mulldrifter or Flamekin Harbinger to champion. But the fact is that if your creatures are killed, which they will be if the opponent want to win the game, then you can't play your champion creatures. Even the faintest possibility of that happening should deter you from even considering using creatures with Champion in competitive play. Even worse: if you have one creature in play and a champion creature in hand and the opponent have untapped red, black, blue or white mana, it is asking to be ravaged savagely in the rear if you decide to play that creature. I have tried them. All of them except Mistblind Clique sucks putrid camel balls.

Bladewhirl isn't bad, but in your deck, which isn't very fast and have no burn, you have no use of a early beater.

When you look at your curve (creatures):

1 cc: 7
2 cc: 3
3 cc: 4
4 cc: 5
5 cc: 8
6 cc: 1
7 cc: 1

... then you realize that you absolutely need 4 Smokebraiders in that deck. Even that won't be enough. You need 4 more 2cc accelerators in there to get a normal curve, especially considering that 22 lands are bound to make you miss land drop #4 for several turns on average. Not to speak of land drop #5! A curve topping out at 5 needs 30+ mana sources in order to function properly. So 24 lands, 4 braiders, 2 other accelerators minimum (Coldsteel Heart/Prismatic Lens/Coalition Relic).
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Vedrfolner



Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2325

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try something like this:

4 Flamekin Harbinger
4 Smokebraider
4 Incandescent Soulstoke
3 Shriekmaw
4 Mulldrifter
2 Reveillark
1 Æthersnipe
1 Spitebellows

4 Incinerate
4 Lash Out
2 Flame Javelin
3 Makeshift Mannequin

4 Primal Beyond
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Secluded Glen
12 Mountain

Actually, I think what I do differently than you, considering the likeness of the decks, is that I don't try to be fast early on. I slow them down and steal the mid-game by using card advantage. The mannequins allow me to evoke early on without worrying too much about losing the tempo. Mulldrifter draws into burn.

So I skip weak cards like Banneret, Supreme Exemplar, Sunflare Shaman and Ashenmoor Gouger and instead insert burn + Makeshift Mannequin. Less 2/3-of and more 4-of for consistency. You're right that the Coldsteel Hearts shouldn't be there, but if you want to go aggressive with elementals, play Elemental Shamans instead:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
18 [CS] Snow-Covered Mountain
4 [MOR] Mutavault

// Creatures
4 [LRW] Flamekin Harbinger
3 [LRW] Ashling the Pilgrim
4 [MOR] Sunflare Shaman
4 [LRW] Smokebraider
4 [MOR] Rage Forger
4 [LRW] Incandescent Soulstoke

// Spells
4 [10E] Shock
4 [10E] Incinerate
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
3 [SHM] Flame Javelin

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CS] Skred
SB: 4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
SB: 4 [SHM] Fulminator Mage
SB: 3 [LRW] Glarewielder

EDIT: I have posted those decks (more or less) earlier in this thread. I suspected I repeated myself but had to check to be sure. In any case, what I wrote between the decklists is relevant.
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Kholdstare42



Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i made a version that actually had nova chaser in it..its pretty neat to soulstoke it out onto a harbinger..swing.. for 11 trample..then get another chaser and do it again.
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