clarification on mistbind clique

cloudstr · Joined: 17 Jan 2008 Posts: 6

Just wanna understand something, if someone can explain to me why it's like this. it would be a great help.

my opponent casts mistbind clique. with champion on the stack i skred it. my opponent says that even if mistbind's dead, the triggered abilitiy that allows it to mana short me will still trigger and resolve. The judges agreed with him too.

i'm not here to dispute the ruling or sound like an arse. just wanna understand why, as i thought that with the champion on stack and i kill mistbind, i understand that champion will still resolve, but since mistbind is by now in the gy the triggered ability that says that when a fairy is championed tap all lands wun even trigger at all. At least that's what i thougt, my opponent likens it to disenchanting oblivion ring's rfg effect with disenchant, but that's a leave play trigger unlike mistbind. At least imo.

so if anyone could work out for me how the stack resolves it would be appreciated thnx. just wanna up my rules knowledge lol.

gypsy · Joined: 15 Jun 2007 Posts: 417

you know when a judge makes a ruling, your allowed to ask him to explain why it works like that. to me it seems you are right maybe they misunderstood the champion trigger, people make mistakes, judges arent robots that are right about everything

cloudstr · Joined: 17 Jan 2008 Posts: 6

erm yeah but in this case there were 2 judges agreeing. and i actually had 2 rules disputes, one was my mistake so i didn't want to push too hard on the mana short ruling in case i was wrong again. Would make me seem unreasonable, and yeah 2 judges and my opp said they were right, and i was proven wrong once, so not much confidence on the 2nd instance.

to be fair, they said i could have appealed to the rooster if i wanted, but we had argued for quite some time already and i didn't wanna be an arse. when it's 3vs1, and 2 of them are judges it's hard to think that you're right you know.

anyway, would like another opinion on the absolute correct ruling. thnx a lot.

gypsy · Joined: 15 Jun 2007 Posts: 417

even if 2 judges made the ruling you should have asked them to explain why, judges are your friends and will answer questions you have.

Orlandu · Joined: 25 Sep 2004 Posts: 76

Yeah Luis-Scott Vargas, and apparently Magic Online thought the same thing that your judges did, but there's a level 4 or 5 judge, forget his name but I think he was the head judge at GP: Philly, that aggrees with you. You can find his thoughts on the matter here: http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=308946

FantasyGamer · Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 17

I think that the champion trigger will still resolve, but, since the leave from play trigger resolves first, the championed fairy wont ever return.

gypsy · Joined: 15 Jun 2007 Posts: 417

this should clear it up i looked in the comprehensive rules

# 502.72.Ruling.1 - If a creature with champion leaves play before its comes-into-play ability resolves, its leaves-play ability will do nothing. Then its comes-into-play ability will resolve. Its controller may remove a permanent of the appropriate quality he or she controls from the game. If the player does, that card won't come back. If the player doesn't, nothing happens (because the creature with champion isn't around to be sacrificed.) [Lorwyn FAQ 2007/09/25]

Hardtrack · Joined: 10 Aug 2005 Posts: 234

There is no way you would get Mana Shorted if the Mistbind Clique leaves play before the Champion trigger resolves. The Champion ability will still resolve and they could even remove something from the game (permanently, in this case), but there is no Mana Short triggered ability to trigger, because the Clique is no longer in play. The judges and your opponent were wrong.

cloudstr · Joined: 17 Jan 2008 Posts: 6

ok thnx for all the help guys. appreiciate it.

Conkisstador · Joined: 08 Sep 2004 Posts: 219

when a champion creature comes into paly... it triggers. the trigger says in easy terms "when this ability resolves, either rfg a guy or sacrifice this"

that trigger is THERE no matter if the source of it is or not. when mistbind clique leaves play, there's stilla champion trigger. as that trigger resolves, the clique controller chooses A or B.

NOW... champion creates another trigger when the creature leaves play. in this case... mistbind clique leaves play and tries to "bring the removed creature back." there is no creature of this description so the ability resolves and nothing happens.

so here we are in your game... there's a dead clique but there's still a champion trigger on the stack with a label of "when u champion this way, tap opponent's lands" etc. say the effect resolves and he champions a spellstutter sprite. now there's a trigger telling you to tap lands. you can respond to this "when" trigger by popping horizon canopy or by casting an instant, etc.

the last thing that is important is the spellstutter sprite is permanently removed from the game. the effect that made it leave isn't around to make it come back. hopefully whatever creature they championed stayed out of the game.

final state of your board going to draw:
all your lands are tapped, you have a skred in yard. they have a dead clique and an rfg ____ that's not coming back.

hope that clears champion triggers for you

Ummmyeh13 · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 1

cloudstr · Joined: 17 Jan 2008 Posts: 6

yeah conk you're wrong, the trigger that man shorts me is a separate trigger and will only trigger IF mistbind is still in play after champion

thedarkness · Joined: 13 Jul 2006 Posts: 446

I'm actually familiar with this issue.

First: don't try to correct Clariax. RL level 3 judge > your meager opinion! > : (!!!

Second, this is a commonly recognized error on modo v2.5, and one that people are hoping will be fixed in v3 from what I understand in my limited reading.

Third, my explanation:

Flash
Flying
Champion a Faerie
When a Faerie is championed with Mistbind Clique, tap all lands target player controls.

You'll notice that Champion a Faerie and the "mana short" are on different lines.

They are in no way beyond the text on the card (When a Faerie is championed with Mistbind Clique), connected to each other.

If the Clique leaves play before a creature is Championed, you can still champion a critter, rfg'ing it forever, since the "return championed creature to play" ability will have already gone on the stack and resolved,

BUT

Since the mana short is a separate ability OF THE CLIQUE, which is no longer in play, it will not trigger even if you champion something.

The Clique to which the championed creature is "linked" no longer exists as far as the game is concerned, as it is no longer in play and would be considered a "different" Clique if it were returned to play, so even if the ability did work in the way Conkisstador described, it STILL wouldn't mana short anyone, because even if that ability went on the stack, the championed creature wouldn't championed "with the Mistbind Clique," to the best of my understanding.

BigJoo · Joined: 31 Aug 2007 Posts: 15

Ok i have a question. When Clique comes into play and targets a Fae can i "Burn" and negate the Champion or can he choose another target or what? How does that work it have never been clearly explained to me. thank you.

Martas · Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 24

Champion ability doesn't target, you can respond to it but you don't know which faerie is going to be championed