Madness Question

Delicious · Joined: 08 Jun 2007 Posts: 469

at the end of an opponents turn,they discard a creature with madness and play it, in response i use boomerang and put it back to their hand. now they have 8 cards again, do they have to discard again or has the discard already been used?

Hardtrack · Joined: 10 Aug 2005 Posts: 310

The above is not correct. You can bounce the creature, it does not need to have a CiP ability.

314. Cleanup Step

314.1. If the active player’s hand contains more cards than his or her maximum hand size (normally seven), he or she discards enough cards to reduce the hand size to that number (this game action doesn’t use the stack).

314.2. After discarding, the following actions happen simultaneously: all damage is removed from permanents and all “until end of turn” and “this turn” effects end (this game action doesn’t use the stack).

314.3. If the conditions for any state-based effects exist or if any triggered abilities are waiting to be put onto the stack, the active player gets priority and players may play spells and abilities. Once the stack is empty and all players pass, another cleanup step begins. Otherwise, no player receives priority and the step ends.

Bolding, as always, mine.

If somehow 'priority' is created, the Clean-Up Step acts like any other step. You have to pass on an empty stack for it to end. This means you'll get priority after the creature spell has resolves and it came into play. So yes, you can bounce the creature.

However since a new Clean-Up Step is created, they have to discard it again and could play it again via Madness (assuming they have the mana).

Delicious · Joined: 08 Jun 2007 Posts: 469

Hardtrack · Joined: 10 Aug 2005 Posts: 310

After they have discarded, played it for the Madness cost and you bounced it, there is a second Clean-Up Step. In that Clean-Up Step they have to discard down to seven once again. So if they have eight cards in their hand, they have to discard one. Whether or not the card they discard has Madness or they have any lands untapped doesn't matter. They have to discard a card.

Conkisstador · Joined: 08 Sep 2004 Posts: 279

sorry i missed that.
makes sense though... both players need to pass on an empty stack. bouncing a madness card tho will most-likely allow them to play it again for madness.