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OCTGN 2.0 Updated Sept 2009 - Superior to Magic Workstation


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Have you tried out the newest Sept 2009 release of OCTGN 2.0 yet?
Yes
25%
 25%  [ 5 ]
No
75%
 75%  [ 15 ]
Total Votes : 20

Author Message
Apocalypser



Joined: 05 Jun 2005
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think i read it somewhere that neither the host nor the other player ever "knew" what was in their hands, etc; the information was split between them.
I used to play mtgplay a long long time ago and it was nice.
When mtgplay "died", i stopped playing with it and after some time i tried octgn but it sucked. The biggest flaw was and probably still is the deck editor which sucked. hard.
I'll give octgn 2 a try and see how it fares.
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Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KeySam wrote:

To the first bold lined, wow i wonder where are the hacks from all public games come from. Now a bit more serious, having the program code is obviously good for someone who wants to cheat, all i said if its written right it doesnt make it easier.


Being as closed source makes it impossible to program a cheat program to run along with the application would make me say that open source does indeed make it easier as it makes it possible.

KeySam wrote:
The second bold lined, thisway you could goaround a version check(although Hamachi is something completly different), the problem is if ClarkKant is right and the host makes all the math,
its almost impoisible to cheat from the client, since you would need to hack into the server. Of course it totaly depends on how its written, but people that say omfg its open source, its soo easy to hack, just dont realy know what their talking about.

KeySam


No hamachi is not totally different. It acts as a server to allow people to connect to that server then to each other THROUGH that server. While its for a different reason, bw does the same thing.
When using either of the two. You send your info to the secondary program(hamachi, bw) then they send it to the other player. The difference between hamachi and bw is your sending the info to hamachi to give to the other player because a firewall stops you from doing it yourself. Your sending the info to bw before the other player so you can edit that info in order to cheat. Which is why the two programs don't work in cohesion.

Essentially theres only 1 way they could make OCTGN 2.0 uncheatable and thats make it so where nobody could connect directly to each other but instead connect to a official OCTGN server. This would make using a cheat program like bw impossible. However the first OCTGN allowed direct connection and I see nothing indicating this won't either. Meaning in translation...its quite possible to use the open source code to script a cheat program.
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NahHolmes



Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 738

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craze wrote:

Being as closed source makes it impossible to program a cheat program to run along with the application would make me say that open source does indeed make it easier as it makes it possible.

Wait, what? NO.
If you hosted the games on it you could read the output the game was sending back and forth to the other client and write a program to stifle the real output and send false output so that you would be able to for example, stack you library, and while the program is snedning, "PLAYER 1 searches his library, rearranges cards" and such the output would never reach the other player. Of course there are ways to program around this such as store the information of library order on both CPUs but that just opens another possibility where you could see opponents library with a cheat. As has been said before, YES open source makes it easier to hack. YES the only real way to make it cheat proof is careful coding and hosting all games on a dedicated server. NO it is not impossible to hack closed source software, people do it all the time on programs much more complicated then a free online card playing game. They should have it open source and host games on a server, then keep the server software closed source.
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Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NahHolmes wrote:
Craze wrote:

Being as closed source makes it impossible to program a cheat program to run along with the application would make me say that open source does indeed make it easier as it makes it possible.

Wait, what? NO.
If you hosted the games on it you could read the output the game was sending back and forth to the other client and write a program to stifle the real output and send false output so that you would be able to for example, stack you library, and while the program is snedning, "PLAYER 1 searches his library, rearranges cards" and such the output would never reach the other player. Of course there are ways to program around this such as store the information of library order on both CPUs but that just opens another possibility where you could see opponents library with a cheat. As has been said before, YES open source makes it easier to hack. YES the only real way to make it cheat proof is careful coding and hosting all games on a dedicated server. NO it is not impossible to hack closed source software, people do it all the time on programs much more complicated then a free online card playing game. They should have it open source and host games on a server, then keep the server software closed source.


problem with scripting something to interact with closed software, especially tcg games, is the info the app sends out is encrypted and thus impossible to read if you don't have something to unencrypt it. Which essentially is why BW won't work on MWS, because BW can't read MWS's code.
I mean yes its possible to unencrypt it without seeing the original source code. But its not easy at all and most mtg players couldn't do it.
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da_penguin
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thats bc hackers have better things to do than play mtg and hack an online league.
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Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

da_penguin wrote:
thats bc hackers have better things to do than play mtg and hack an online league.


ya don't have to be a hacker to invent a cheating program. You have to be a programmer. And no programmers have nothing better to do with their time.

Nor do hackers for that matter...
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KeySam



Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 649

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually theres still a crack for mws, that you dont need to pay(it doesnt open all functions). But since its open source maybe go can take some parts out of it. (i dont know what kind of licens this open source projekt has).

Just dont tell them, uh i didnt say that Wink
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Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think in the long run why MWS is a better prog is MWS is closed source. You can't get the code unencrypter from it thus can't build a cheat prog that can edit its code.
I'm not positive but being as ML worships GO so much, I assume GO will be closed source, but thats the catch 22. All closed source programs require they're programmers to continue to update them, and most of the programmers quit caring. Open source allows anyone to update but that means they can build cheat programs...

kinda the trade off eh?
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da_penguin
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hackers/programmers are the same thing, programming is just their job hacking is what they do, you have to know programming to be a hacker, so tis the same thing you just dont go around telling people oh im a hacker but you can say im a programmer.
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Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

da_penguin wrote:
hackers/programmers are the same thing, programming is just their job hacking is what they do, you have to know programming to be a hacker, so tis the same thing you just dont go around telling people oh im a hacker but you can say im a programmer.


nowadays hackers are idiots who have no clue wtf they are doing and just pretend they could do something. To hack something you don't need to know how to program, all you need to know is how to read a program code. REAL hackers are guys hired by large companies to test security. Just because they have programs to steal IPs and know their way around basic code doesn't mean they could design a detailed program.

A programmer isn't a hacker, just because you can make your own program doesn't mean you can get access to another server. A programmer is essentially someone who creates a program. This could be a extremely basic one and that person would technically be called a programmer.

Programing and hacking aren't the same thing, both do require basic knowledge of a programming language. A really good hacker can totally suck at programming and a really genius programmer could have no clue about hacking.

Also creating a cheat program for a mtg application has NOTHING to do with hacking. Especially when that programs code is given to you. Now obtaining a closed source program's code can have something to do with hacking. But that of course is illegal...
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NahHolmes



Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 738

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the purpose of this argument, all that matters is relevant hackers and programmers know how online games function to some level if they are messing with magic gaming script. Seriously to edit any program, even open source, you have to have some knowledge of programing. I mean it's not like you can show your dad open source code and he can be like, "Oh, if you edit out this line it's totally a cheat." Anyways though any good hacker is a programmer and any good programmer is most likely pretty sharp and could probably hack (I mean at least if they program networkable apps). Sure it would be more profitable to just write solid code then to hack a free online app, and a given that you would get busted pretty quick if someone (even a group) using the same hacked app won more a handful of online Majors, but seriously people have wasted their time on less productive shit in the past. Basically an open source game with no server is just an invite for trouble. Hopefully for them this is just a midpoint to running on a server, which would actually be a smart move because if someone was to release a hack it would maybe show possible weakpoints in the program for a server based release, while at the same time opening the program to a wider audience.

Anyways in the end the best way to release such a product is to have an open source client, with a closed source server. This way you get the best of both worlds. Committed players/proggers would be able to edit the client side and make it more flashy, but at the same time the server handles all the info you don't want to players to see and remains secure. I mean in the end the client is the important part in such a program. You only have to get the server side straight once with a small team and then let the dedicated fans make the client flashy, implementing only the best, most solid mods in the official version. All this from someone who is currently in the preliminary process of planning an online game, so yeah, due to the way money would be generated for the company from my program, network security is the #1 concern.
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Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NahHolmes wrote:

Anyways in the end the best way to release such a product is to have an open source client, with a closed source server. This way you get the best of both worlds. Committed players/proggers would be able to edit the client side and make it more flashy, but at the same time the server handles all the info you don't want to players to see and remains secure. I mean in the end the client is the important part in such a program. You only have to get the server side straight once with a small team and then let the dedicated fans make the client flashy, implementing only the best, most solid mods in the official version. All this from someone who is currently in the preliminary process of planning an online game, so yeah, due to the way money would be generated for the company from my program, network security is the #1 concern.


the problem with having a closed set server, is that everyone would be on that server at once. Imagine a 100+ trial(not to hard to imagine) and the program has only 1 set server! Were talking major traffic and a potential crash and thats with one trial not counting all additional games in ML and else where.
allowing players to host is the easiest way to do it but also the least secure.
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Laplie



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 561

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is definitely possible to have a secure open source program that isn't easy to hack (without needing a server). There are many security problems with open source software, but they are all solvable. For example:

how do you keep the cards and the order of the cards private from both players?:

1) Player A encrypts each card then shuffles the library and passes the deck to player B,.

2) Player B then encrypts each card again then shuffles the library and passes the deck back to player A.

3) Player B then repeats the process with his own deck.

in order to see what a card is, player a must pass a card to player b, for him to decrypt, then player A decrypts the card seeing its text

This solves a bunch of problems such as:
What if player A doesn't shuffle his deck? Doesn't matter cause player B shuffles the deck
How do you prevent someone from looking at their cards? you need both players to decrypt the card.

etc, etc.

Open source doesn't mean insecure. PGP is open source and is used worldwide for security.
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Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ClarkKant wrote:
Twhy don't get off the chair and actually do it and prove us wrong if it's so hackable.


by making a mtg cheat program for a program that in fact doesn't play mtg?

Jodes wrote:
You can play with MWS if you want to, but altough it's closed source cheats are available today.


Available where? I made a huge effort to attempt to find one in order to validate your statement(not to use as I don't cheat).
And currently their is NO public cheat program for MWS.

However wait till a playable version of OCTGN 2.0 gets out. Bet someone makes a cheat prog for that.
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Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm srry but those pics don't look any better then what my MWS currently looks...
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