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question about the stack


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Scalpel



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Activated abilities, that are not mana abilities, resolve using the stack.

The stack works so that the last spell played resolves first.

In your example, you target your mother of runes with flickering ward. Flickering ward goes on the stack and waits to resolve.
Opponent casts shock targetting mother of runes.
Shock goes on the stack on top of flickering ward and waits to resolve.
Mother of runes tap, targetting herself. Protection ability goes on the stack with mother of runes as target. waiting to resolve.
Another shock targets mother of runes, and goes to the top of the stack.

Now because noone else plays more spells or abilities using the stack, (both players give up priority) we start resolving the topmost spell.
This is a shock targetting mother of runes, spell resolves.
State based effects are checked and see that mother of runes has 2 damage and only 1 toughness, so she goes to the graveyard as a state based effect.


Now we resolve the next spell;

Mother of runes protection ability fizzles, since its lacks target.

Resolve next spell;

Shock fizzles since it also lacks its target

resolve bottommost spell;

Flickering ward fizzles due to lack of target (surprise) Wink
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thedarkness



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 580

PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is only one stack. EVERYTHING that uses it at all goes on it, and there are very few things that don't.

These consist exclusively (I believe) of "special actions", such as un-morphing a face-down card or playing a land during your main phase.

With this in mind, here is what happens to your Mother of Runes.

Flickering Ward targeting Mother of Runes (Stack: Flickering Ward)
Response to Ward: Shock targeting Mother of Runes (Stack: Flickering Ward, Shock)
Response to Shock: Mother of Runes taps targeting itself, choosing red (Stack: Flickering Ward, Shock, Mother of Runes)
Response to Mother of Runes: Shock targeting Mother of Runes (Stack: Flickering Ward, Shock, Mother of Runes, Shock)

The rules state that the stack resolves in reverse order, AKA "first in, last out." So the spell most recently played will resolve first. In this case, the second Shock will resolve first, so Mother of Runes will be killed by it, then her ability will try to resolve, find no legal target, and fizzle, then the second shock will fizzle for the same reason, and the Flickering Ward will be countered by the game for the same reason.

Edit: a mere four hours later, this simple question gets two replies within 2 minutes of each other. -_-
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MilanG[GER]



Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 9:30 am    Post subject: Re: 3 more, you are good teaching... Reply with quote

Lukonas wrote:
Tks, u r really clear

another one:

1) talking about the regeneration ability. My 2/2 creature with reg:1G ability blocks a 2/2 ceature, they deal to each other 2 damage, i use the reg ability on mine, then the other creature dies and not mine. I understand this but i want to know the explanation (sorry but u are really good at this condition of teaching and i love to know the cause of the magic actions)

2) if my opponent plays a shock in response to my ability activation, would it dye cause the ability regeneration only works for the shock but no for the further damage that the combat did?

2) is it different if my creature was a 2/2 with the ability of 1U: return this creature to its owner hand? talking about deailing the damage in combat phase...

sorry for the kind of newbe´s question i make...

Tks

L


read the pg
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kendiggy



Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 441
Location: not here

PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your questions are fine, I'd rather answer them and have you learn something rather than you argue with someone about them during a game.

1) Regeneration/Combat :

It's your opponent's main phase. His priority. He wants to move to his combat phase. He passes priority to you. You have no effects, you pass it back. It becomes the Declare Attackers phase. His priority. He declares his attacker as his 2/2 creature and passes priority to you. You have no effects, you pass priority back, it becomes the declare blockers phase. His priority. He has no effects, he passes priority to you, you declare your 2/2 regenerator as a blocker. Once you are finished declaring blockers, it becomes his priority to play spells/abilities before damage goes on the stack. He has no effects. He passes priority to you, you have no effects, Damage goes on the stack. We are now in the Combat Damage phase. His 2/2 creature has two points of damage assigned to it and your 2/2 creature has two points of damage assigned to it. His priority. He has no effects, passes priority to you. Now, one thing I have lacked in explaining here is that if both players pass priority consecutively without using the stack at all, the current phase ends and the game moves to the next phase. So, at this point, when he passes priority to you, if you don't do anything and you just pass it back, damage will resolve and both creatures will die. But, you want to use the creatures regeneration ability, so now is the perfect time to do it. And that's what you do, you activate the ability. When you activate the ability, it is going to go on the stack on top of damage. Then you pass priority to your opponent. He has an effect this time. He casts shock targeting your 2/2 creature. Shock is now on top of the stack and he passes priority to you. You have three choices here, as you do any time you have priority, you can either use the creatures regeneration ability, you can cast a spell from your hand or you can simply choose to do nothing. If I were you, assuming I had the mana to do it, I would activate the creature's regeneration ability again. So then the regeneration ability goes on top of the stack, and you pass priority. Your opponent has no effects, he passes it back, the regeneration ability resolves. Your creature now has a regeneration shield. Now it is your opponent's priority, since his is the active player. He has no effects, passes priority to you, you have no effects, the shock resolves. When the shock resolves, it will deal the creature two points of damage and go to the graveyard. Then, under normal circumstances, state-based effects are checked and see a 2/2 creature with two points of damage on it and the game destroys it. But, in this situation, you have a regeneration shield, so what happens is the game will see the two points of damage on a 2/2 creature and instead of destroying it, it will tap the creature and remove all damage from it and remove it from combat. At this point, we still have another activation of the creatures regeneration ability on the stack, as well as combat damage. Active player has priority (your opponent), he has no effects so he passes priority to you. You have no effects, you pass it back and the regeneration ability resolves, your creature now has a regeneration shield on it. Opponent's priority again, he has no effects, passes to you, you have no effects, you pass back and combat damage resolves. Both creatures had two points of damage assigned to them so both of them took two points of damage. But, once again, you're creature has a regeneration shield on it which will replace destroying the creature when state-based effects are checked by tapping it and removing all damage from it. You're opponent's creature on the other hand, will be destroyed, as there is nothing to prevent it from being destroyed.

2) Answered in above.

3) Yes, it will be different, but everything works the same as above. If you return the creature to your hand, though, damage will not be dealt to it when combat damage is resolved. If he tries to shock it in response, you can attempt to return it to your hand again in response. Everything works exactly as I explained above.
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Lynolf



Joined: 25 Aug 2007
Posts: 546

PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wait a sec. Does that mean that after I declare my attacking creatures, my opponent gets priority first?

And with blocks, after my opponent declares his blocks I get priority first?

And after combat damage is dealt, who gets priority first and when does it change to End of Combat step? And what happens when a creature has first strike, how is priority distributed? Confused
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thedarkness



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 580

PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See, THAT is not a newb question. Razz

That is a very good question. XD I've been out of the game long enough that honestly, I don't remember. Sad
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Hardtrack



Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 651

PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kendiggy wrote:
It's your opponent's main phase. His priority. <snip> as there is nothing to prevent it from being destroyed.

Ok, I've read that wall of text, and although the result is correct the way you got there has many, many mistakes. And for the love of god man, use line breaks and paragraphs!

To not make me go insane I'm just going to do it all over again, heavily using your example, but correcting when necessary:

It's your opponent's turn, it just became his main phase and he gets priority. He wants to move to his combat phase so he passes priority to you. You don't want to play anything either so you pass too.

Since both players passed on an empty stack you move to the next step/phase. It becomes the Combat Phase and the Beginning of Combat Step. He gets priority first again, but passes, and you got nothing either, so you pass too.

Both players passed on an empty stack again and it becomes the Declare Attackers Step (the second Step in the Combat Phase). He would get priority, since he is the active player, but before anyone gets priority, he has to declare attackers (this is a game action that doesn't use the stack). He declares his 2/2 creature as an attacker and declares nothing else. Now he gets priority, but with nothing to play he passes it to you. You still have nothing so you pass priority once more.

Now it becomes the Declare Blockers Step (the third step in the Combat Phase). He would get priority, but there is another game action that needs to be handled first again; declaring blockers. You declare your 2/2 regenerator as a blocker. Now he gets priority thre last opportunity to play something before damage goes on the stack in the Combat Damage Step. He has nothing, so he passes priority to you. You got nothing either again, so you pass too.

Both players passed on an empty stack again, so we move to the next step; the Combat Damage Step (fourth step in the Combat Phase). He would get priority as the active player, but we have a game action waiting, once more. Assigning combat damage and putting it on the stack. There is not much choice in assigning so each creature assings its two damage to the other creature and the combat damage object goes on the stack.

Now, he gets priority. He has nothing so he passes. You get priority and if you would pass now, the top object on the stack would resolve (the combat damage, destroying both creatures). You want to prevent this however, by playing the regeneration ability of your creature. So you use your priority to play the regeneration ability, putting it on top of the stack on top of the combat damage. You get priority again (you played something), but you're done for now, so you pass.

Now, assuming your opponent passes, the regeneration ability resolves, giving your creature an regeneration shield, then, after another round of passing priority, combat damage resolves, giving both creatures two damage. Both would be destroyed, but the regeneration shield steps in and replaces the destruction of your creature with tapping it, removing it from combat and removing damage from it.

Lets say, though, your opponent doesn't pass priority, but plays Shock targeting your 2/2 regenerating creature. Shock goes on top of the stack (on top of the regenerating ability, which is on top of the combat damage) and he passes priority to you.

Now, you could play the regeneration ability again, assuming you have the mana. The second regeneration ability would then go on top of the stack, and you pass priority. Assuming your opponent passes too, the regeneration ability resolves, giving your creature a regeneration shield. Your opponent gets priority (as the active player), he plays nothing and simply passes priority to you. If you pass too the Shock will resolve. When it does, it deals two points of damage to your creature, which would destroy it, but, in this situation, the regeneration shield steps in and replaces the destruction of your creature with tapping it, removing it from combat and removing damage from it.

At this point, we still have another regeneration ability on the stack, as well as combat damage. Assuming everyone just keeps passing the regeneration ability resolves first, giving your creature another fresh regeneration shield.

Then combat damage resolves. Both creatures had two points of damage assigned to them so both take two points of damage. This would destroy both, but, once again, you're creature has a regeneration shield on it which replaces the destruction replaces the destruction of your creature with tapping it, removing it from combat and removing damage from it. Your opponents creature on the other hand, will be destroyed, as there is nothing to prevent it from being destroyed.


As a few extra pointers on terminology (a few are nitpicky, I don't mean to belittle you, just meant as education):

You don't pass priority to someone. You just pass priority, the game then gives the next person priority.

You don't play effects. Effects are created by things resolving (or, in case of continuous effects, always 'on', thanks to a static ability). You play activated abilities or spells. You 'take' a special action.

kendiggy wrote:
3) Yes, it will be different, but everything works the same as above. If you return the creature to your hand, though, damage will not be dealt to it when combat damage is resolved. If he tries to shock it in response, you can attempt to return it to your hand again in response. Everything works exactly as I explained above.

Pretty much the answer I would like to give Smile.

Lynolf wrote:
Wait a sec. Does that mean that after I declare my attacking creatures, my opponent gets priority first?

And with blocks, after my opponent declares his blocks I get priority first?

And after combat damage is dealt, who gets priority first and when does it change to End of Combat step? And what happens when a creature has first strike, how is priority distributed? Confused

I think I have pretty much already explained this, but just to sum it up:

Priority doesn't care much for what is on the stack and even less for which step it is.

If a step starts or something resolves, the active player gets priority (the player whose turn it is). If somebody plays something (and remember, you only play activated abilities and spells) or takes a special action that same player gets priority again.

That's basically all the rules around priority, it's really that simple Smile.
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Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2 things I gotta ask...

Quote:
But, once again, you're creature has a regeneration shield on it which will replace destroying the creature when state-based effects are checked by tapping it and removing all damage from it.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but the first regeneration removes the creature from combat, so technically doesn't the damage aimed at it fizzle still leaving the second regeneration field on it?

my second question is...

Quote:
Now it becomes the Declare Blockers Step (the third step in the Combat Phase). He would get priority, but there is another game action that needs to be handled first again; declaring blockers. You declare your 2/2 regenerator as a blocker. Now he gets priority thre last opportunity to play something before damage goes on the stack in the Combat Damage Step. He has nothing, so he passes priority to you. You got nothing either again, so you pass too.


I don't really understand it but someone explained it to me so I'll try to say it right, but I might be extremely wrong in which case correct me.
I once asked (I don't remember exactly who) if you can kill a blocking creature with a shock before it blocks, thus leaving your attacking creature unblocked. And the judge said that you can at the beginning of the declare blockers step. So shouldn't it go:
He gets priority, does nothing, passes it
You get priority, do nothing pass it.
Then he declares blockers?
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Gorbadoc



Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Rules wrote:
309.2f An attacking creature with one or more creatures declared as blockers for it becomes a blocked creature; one with no blockers becomes an unblocked creature. This remains unchanged until the creature is removed from combat or the combat phase ends, whichever comes first. (Some effects can change whether a creature is blocked or unblocked.)

This rule is extremely important. With the exception of special abilities (such as trample), this means that I can't sneak an attacker past your defenses by casting Lightning Bolt on the creature you assign as a blocker.

Think of it this way:
Suppose you have a really lenient opponent. It's your turn. He has a bunch of Mons's Goblin Raiders in play, and you attack with a Craw Wurm. Your opponent decides to block with one of the goblins. You say, "no, no, I meant to Lightning Bolt that goblin". Your opponent, being lenient, says that you can do so, but that he gets to reassign blockers.

The point is that, when the defending player declares blockers, he has a right to know what creatures can cause an attacker to be blocked. This principle is so important that subsequent events (such as the blocker being electrocuted to death) don't change the fact that the attacker was blocked.

If you want to pull slick stunts to sneak your attack damage through, you need 1) to do it before blockers are declared, or 2) to use Trample, or 3) to use a card that specifically says it makes your creature unblocked.
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Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gorbadoc wrote:
The Rules wrote:
309.2f An attacking creature with one or more creatures declared as blockers for it becomes a blocked creature; one with no blockers becomes an unblocked creature. This remains unchanged until the creature is removed from combat or the combat phase ends, whichever comes first. (Some effects can change whether a creature is blocked or unblocked.)

This rule is extremely important. With the exception of special abilities (such as trample), this means that I can't sneak an attacker past your defenses by casting Lightning Bolt on the creature you assign as a blocker.

Think of it this way:
Suppose you have a really lenient opponent. It's your turn. He has a bunch of Mons's Goblin Raiders in play, and you attack with a Craw Wurm. Your opponent decides to block with one of the goblins. You say, "no, no, I meant to Lightning Bolt that goblin". Your opponent, being lenient, says that you can do so, but that he gets to reassign blockers.

The point is that, when the defending player declares blockers, he has a right to know what creatures can cause an attacker to be blocked. This principle is so important that subsequent events (such as the blocker being electrocuted to death) don't change the fact that the attacker was blocked.

If you want to pull slick stunts to sneak your attack damage through, you need 1) to do it before blockers are declared, or 2) to use Trample, or 3) to use a card that specifically says it makes your creature unblocked.


Though you still can throw a spell in before he blocks, say with his 1 or so creature, or even a flash creature he plays in the first combat step. Meaning if he has 1 creature out, you swing with a goblin, the declare blocker step starts, you can use a spell before he declares actual blockers. Which really works as a surprise being very little people announce every priority change and generally just say "ok I block you with this" right after you attack.

Am I right?
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LoneWulf



Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 191

PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Craze
Though you still can throw a spell in before he blocks, say with his 1 or so creature, or even a flash creature he plays in the first combat step. Meaning if he has 1 creature out, you swing with a goblin, the declare blocker step starts, you can use a spell before he declares actual blockers. Which really works as a surprise being very little people announce every priority change and generally just say "ok I block you with this" right after you attack.

Am I right?[/quote]

Nope.

309.1. As the declare blockers step begins, the defending player declares blockers (this game action
doesn’t use the stack). Then any abilities that triggered on blockers being declared go on the stack.
(See rule 410, “Handling Triggered Abilities.”) Then the active player gets priority and players may
play spells and abilities.
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Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you can't play a spell to kill a blocker during the declare blockers step in order to get your creature to go unblocked?

no way no how?
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lennin
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you can craze you just do it during the declare attackers step not the declare blockers step.
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LoneWulf



Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 191

PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craze wrote:
I once asked (I don't remember exactly who) if you can kill a blocking creature with a shock before it blocks, thus leaving your attacking creature unblocked. And the judge said that you can at the beginning of the declare blockers step.


Don't know who you asked but he was wrong.

Once your opponent has declared what's blocking what then you can start playing your spells/abilities. If you kill a blocker (even before damage is stacked) your attacker doesn't become "unblocked" and won't deal damage.
Now if your attacker has trample (or a Thorn Elemental-like ability) you'd be able to assign all the damage to your opponent as there is no blocking creature to absorb any of it.
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LoneWulf



Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 191

PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lennin wrote:
you can craze you just do it during the declare attackers step not the declare blockers step.


Technically that's just killing a "potential blocker".

Once you pass your priority during the declare attackers step you won't get it back until after he's declared his blockers.
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