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Dread Return


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Rith54154



Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 12:34 am    Post subject: Dread Return Reply with quote

If you have 3 creatures out like a Merfolk Looter, Bonded Fetch and a Bogardan Hellkite and you sac the 3 creatures to flashback Dread Return can you then and re-animate the Hellkite that you just saced to the Dread Return?
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lennin
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i doint think so
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Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

no
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Barnacle



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

no because you pay the cost and choose what creature you are going to target with dread return at the same time.
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Hardtrack



Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 651

PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not at the same time. You choose targets before you pay the costs of a spell. Since the Bogardan Hellkite is thus still in play when you have to choose targets you can't choose it as your target.
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dv8r



Joined: 15 Oct 2005
Posts: 239

PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

assuming my opponent does the above play and targets, say, an akroma in his/her graveyard, can I unmorph willbender to force him to target a bonded fetch that he sacked to flashback the dread return
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Lynolf



Joined: 25 Aug 2007
Posts: 546

PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dv8r wrote:
assuming my opponent does the above play and targets, say, an akroma in his/her graveyard, can I unmorph willbender to force him to target a bonded fetch that he sacked to flashback the dread return


Willbender says:

"When Willbender is turned face up, change the target of target spell or ability with a single target."

Since at the time this ability triggers Bonded Fetch is in your opponents graveyard and is a legal target for this ability, I think you can change the target of dread return to it.
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Bozo



Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Posts: 107

PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I have a Llanowar Elf Cytoshaped into a Dryad arbor and I enchant it with an Overgrowth and I have two Sachi, daughter of seshiro's in play and A Mirror Gallery and an Unnatural Selection turning the Llanowar elf back into a shaman can I tap the Elf for GGGGGGGGGGGGGG?
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Lynolf



Joined: 25 Aug 2007
Posts: 546

PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bozo, I believe the answer is NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO because sachi's ability says:

Shamans you control have "T: Add GG to your mana pool."

So since you can only use one tap ability, the maximum amount of mana you can have is GGGG: GG from sachi's ability in the elves and GG from Overgrowth.

By the way, why all that card mixture? I doubt you will ever have that kind of combo in play Confused
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kittykat



Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i like having a body double in grave and saccing bonded fetches and a hellkite to bring back body double and copy hellkite Razz
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kendiggy



Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 441
Location: not here

PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bozo, the maximum you will get from your Llanowar Elf is GG. Your llanowar elf will have the following abilities:

Tap: Add G to your mana pool.
Tap: Add G to your mana pool.
Tap: Add GG to your mana pool.
Tap: Add GG to your mana pool.

You can only use one ability at a time. You choose which ability you wish to use before you tap the llanowar elf.
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Hardtrack



Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 651

PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overgrowth, however, will trigger no matter which one you choose, so you'll get extra from the Overgrowth.
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Gorbadoc



Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love how Bozo comes up with this pointlessly convoluted combination that costs more than it seeks to produce and that doesn't even work. Whether you were being serious or joking Bozo, I got a good laugh out of your post.

Hardtrack, kendiggy, and Lynolf are correct. One point should be clarified, though: you don't control any elves. The way you set it up, until end of turn you control a copy Dryad Arbor that is has had its type reassigned by Unnatural Selection.

Here's where things get sticky; as far as I can tell, Unnatural Selection breaks the game.
Unnatural Selection wrote:
Choose a creature type other than Wall. Target creature becomes that type until end of turn.
Unnatural Selection modifies the Dryad Arbor's type line, but how? The options are:
1) Land Creature - Forest Dryad Shaman
2) Land Creature - Forest Shaman
3) Land Creature - Shaman
4) Land Shaman - Forest
5) Shaman -

Rule 212.1b eliminates options 1, 3, and 4;
The Rules wrote:
212.1b. When an object's card type changes, the new card type(s) replaces any existing card types... Similarly, when one or more of an object's subtypes changes, the new subtype(s) replaces any existing subtypes from the appropriate set...


Rule 212.1e eliminates the possibility that you might pick "elf shaman" as a creature type; "If an instruction requires choosing a subtype, you must choose one, and only one, existing subtype..."

It's just a question of whether "Shaman" replaces the subtype (option 2) or the type (option 5). The text says "Target creature becomes that type", not "... becomes that subtype" or "... becomes that creature type". Clearly the type line becomes "Shaman -".

That's a real problem; "Shaman" is not a card type, so a card of type "Shaman" will have no defined properties. The game has no way of handling such a card. We can recognize that it's in play, but we can't tell whether it's a permanent. My theory is that the game explodes, causing all players to lose simultaneously, resulting in a draw by rule 102.4.

What are other people's thoughts on this one-card loophole of doom?
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Hardtrack



Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 651

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unnatural Selection.

That you need to stop reading so much into it. 'That type' obviously refers back to the 'creature type other than Wall'. A creature type is short hand for a subtype linked to creatures (and Tribals). The card works fine as is. Nothing is broken about it. Llanowar Elves turned Dryad Arbor becomes a Land Creature - Forest Shaman.
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Gorbadoc



Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your argument, while adequate, is vaguely dissatisfying. Common sense and Magic don't always go hand-in-hand. Even on the subject of card types, common sense previously said that a card type had to dictate enough properties that it could stand alone. Then along came Tribals. Common sense says Tribal is a supertype, as it describes properties independent of the card's other type(s). The rules, though, say it's a card type.

Rule 205 discusses the nomenclature for types. It says nothing about the meaning of "type" when not preceded by "super-", "card", "[card type]", or "sub-". Given how nitpicky many of the rules are, I'm surprised they leave this ambiguity to be resolved by common sense.
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