"Attacking"

snarles · Joined: 16 Oct 2004 Posts: 1

1. I declare an attack with Springjack knight. After I clash, can I decide to declare more attackers?
2. I declare attacks with Springjack knight and two Skeletal Changelings. Can I activate Windbrisk heights before the declare blockers step?
3. If so, and I play Hostility using Windbrisk heights, can I declare an attack with it after it resolves?

Ronnan · Joined: 08 May 2005 Posts: 139

1: no, it triggers after all attackers have been declared
2: you can use it before opponent gets the chance to block
3: no, like in 1, all attackers are declared as a whole

Gorbadoc · Joined: 29 Oct 2007 Posts: 56

Ronnan is correct.

See rule 307

To attack, you go through the following steps. After each step, anything triggered by that step goes onto the stack, then players have the opportunity to play instants, creatures with flash, permanents' abilities, etc. using the normal rules of the stack for doing so. Go on to the next step only when the stack is clear and all players pass. The steps are:

Declare an attack (doesn't use the stack)
Assign attackers (tapping them as you do so) (doesn't use the stack)
Assign blockers (doesn't use the stack)
Put first-strike combat damage onto the stack
Put regular combat damage onto the stack
Put "End of combat" triggered effects onto the stack

Meaningless steps are skipped (e.g. if there are no attackers by the time you would declare blockers, you skip to the end).

If something was not assigned to attack during the declare attackers step, it does not attack. Period. End of story.

Unless a card tells you to do otherwise. For example, Militia's Pride lets you put tokens into play tapped and attacking after attackers have been assigned. Interestingly, when this sort of effect causes a creature to be attacking, that creature is not actually declared as an attacker and won't trigger "When so-and-so attacks" abilities, but it can be affected by abilities that target attacking creatures. But I digress.

If you want to guarantee the double strike before attacking with your heavy hitter, you'll just have to either scry or have a "remove from combat" effect available. I suggest Momentary Blink, since it's good for other things, too.

__Q__ · Joined: 28 Jan 2007 Posts: 6

can i bring attacking token with militias pride into play after blockers are declared Razz

??

Delicious · Joined: 08 Jun 2007 Posts: 388

no

it says to pay (w) when declaring attackers

Gorbadoc · Joined: 29 Oct 2007 Posts: 56

Technically the only thing that happens while attackers are declared is that attackers are declared; the triggered ability goes onto the stack as soon as you're done declaring attackers, and blockers can't be declared until after it (and anything else on the stack) has resolved.

I think he was joking anyway, though.

snarles2 · Joined: 07 Sep 2007 Posts: 15

I assign Kinsbaile Balloonist and Changeling Berserker to attack. After I've done this, is there any way my opponent can kill Balloonist before it can grant flying?

Hardtrack · Joined: 10 Aug 2005 Posts: 234

Yes, just destroy it in response to the triggered ability.

Gorbadoc · Joined: 29 Oct 2007 Posts: 56

I disagree. The only way to stop it is to kill the balloonist before attackers are declared or to kill the would-be recipient of flight. Even if someone kills every creature on the board after attackers are declared, the ability still resolves; you're just left having to choose not to give anything flight.

Kinsbaile Balloonist: Whenever Kinsbaile Balloonist attacks, you may have target creature gain flying until end of turn.

402.6. Once activated or triggered, an ability exists independently of its source as an ability on the stack. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won’t affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, “Prodigal Sorcerer deals 1 damage to target creature or player”) rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability that references information about the source because the effect needs to be divided checks that information when the ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it will check that information when it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in play, its last known information is used.

Hardtrack · Joined: 10 Aug 2005 Posts: 234

But you can kill it before it grants flying (i.e. the ability resolves).

Also note that if you destroy the target of the triggered ability, it fizzles (i.e. is countered for having all illegal targets) and thus never resolves.

You're correct though that destroying the Kinsbaile Balloonist after it attacks will not stop its ability from resolving.

Gorbadoc · Joined: 29 Oct 2007 Posts: 56

Ha ha, I see what you mean. The question was whether his opponent could kill the balloonist "before it can grant flying", though. Depending on how he meant "can", one argue the extreme positions that the card always can grant flying no matter what zone it's in, because it is an ability of the card ("can" being equivalent to "has the potential to, given the right circumstances"); or that the card can never grant flying, because the ability technically says "you may have target creature gain flying" rather than "balloonist grants target creature flying". In context, your interpretation could work, but I took the "can opponent do x before card can do y" formation to mean "can opponent preempt action y with action x". I sometimes worry that I get entirely too excited over the intricacies of language.

You just corrected me on this in another thread (and rightly so); the ability is not targeted when it goes on the stack, so you can't make it fizzle by killing its intended target. Because it's a "you may..." ability, you pick the target (if any) when the ability resolves. See rule 410.5. Of course, the only way it could matter would be if you had a couple creatures you might want to target and your opponent wanted to hit the target with either an effect that hits only non-fliers or an effect that was triggered by you declaring attackers.

Hardtrack · Joined: 10 Aug 2005 Posts: 234

I was mostly kidding and/or misunderstanding the question. Your interpretation was probably what he meant to ask, I just didn't read it as such.

Gorbadoc · Joined: 29 Oct 2007 Posts: 56

I keep rereading rule 410.5, and the only conclusion I've reached for sure is that the rule is poorly worded. It doesn't explicitly say that it's an exception to the rules for assigning targets, but it does imply as much. Of course, implication is to explicit statement as sponge is to bucket; they all hold water, but the difference is what happens when they're hard-pressed.

For all the kids at home:

Hardtrack · Joined: 10 Aug 2005 Posts: 234

I really fail to see how you read anything about targetting in that rule. The word 'target' is never even mentioned...

Gorbadoc · Joined: 29 Oct 2007 Posts: 56

"The choice [whether to exercise the ability's option] is made when the ability resolves." The target is one of the options of the ability. The more I think about it, though, the more I suspect you're right; "option" in this case refers only to the binary "proceed xor cancel" choice implied by "may". It does not make any claim regarding any choices within the potential event. My thinking was that it did.