Sower of Temptation

Gorbadoc · Joined: 29 Oct 2007 Posts: 56

On the matter of mimicking a Sower, if I understand the situation, the rules of the game trump what the text on the card says (a weak case could be made that this violates the first rule of Magic, but that's neither here nor there). "Sower of Temptation" in the card text doesn't actually mean "Sower of Temptation". If it did, ANY Sower would maintain the charm; I could cast my Sower, charm your Sower, and I'd keep your Sower even if you incinerated mine because there'd still be an instance of "Sower of Temptation" on the playing field.

"Sower of Temptation" in the text of a permanent called "Sower of Temptation" actually means "This particular instance of a permanent". It's a screwy, convoluted rule. If WOTC wanted card texts to be clearer, they'd have keywords this card and this permanent. Instead, WOTC (apparently) figures that it looks cool to have cards refer to themselves in the third person. I think this is why Grandeur abilities say "... another card named ~whatever~"; it sounds redundant, but it's necessary in the context of the screwy nomenclature Magic cards use for referring to themselves.

Note that Momentary Blink effectively recasts the permanent. It's the same physical card, but as far as the game is concerned, the old permanent is gone and replaced with a new permanent.

To answer Shadow's question, I think the rules say that when effects contradict, the one that executed most recently takes precedence. So if you're going to zap one of his Sowers, zap the second one.

Hardtrack · Joined: 10 Aug 2005 Posts: 268

Conkisstador · Joined: 08 Sep 2004 Posts: 253

active player will come into play if theres multiple cards in paly affecting control. persuasion, sower, take possession... balancing each other out = very complicated when the wrong things die.

at the root of it is killing your own control effect while they have taken it with a "while this is in play, when it leaves, return it" effect. then when u kill their guy u get a card owned by them. odd and rare. thankfully Smile

Gorbadoc · Joined: 29 Oct 2007 Posts: 56

I think Hardtrack has the right way of analyzing it; the control effects are stacked "Static Abilities" (I know, they're more like state variables than static abilities. WOTC's nomenclature strikes again.).

Of course, if the return were a triggered ability (for example, if Sower's text said "... return controlled unit if Sower leaves play,"), then you'd get some strangeness. In the case where I charm, you charm, our Sowers die simultaneously in combat, you'd have a case where two effects want to resolve simultaneously and control would go to whoever's effect didn't resolve last. In that scenario, I have no clue which one gets precedence; precedence on that microscopic level has a bunch of exceptions if I recall correctly.

lennin · Guest

what would happen if i copied sower with a vesuvan then tunred it face down then blinked the vesuvan, would i lose control of the creature i stole

Hardtrack · Joined: 10 Aug 2005 Posts: 268

Gorbadoc · Joined: 29 Oct 2007 Posts: 56

I'm not sure whether you get to charm a creature with Vesuvan Shapeshifter in the first place. Its ability to copy a Sower of Temptation triggers when it comes into play. By the time the Vesuvan is imitating a Sower, the "comes into play" trigger is done and past.

Assuming you could charm a creature, though, here's how I believe it works:

When you interpret Sower's text, replace "Sower of Temptation" with "this particular permanent". It doesn't matter how much the stupid thing shapeshifts or transmogrifies or transubstantiates as long as it's still the same permanent. It could turn into an enchantment, an artifact, or your aunt Mary's tea cozy. As long as it is the same permanent and still in play, the charm effect remains in effect. No matter what form it's in, though, the moment that permanent leaves play, the charm effect expires. See here for an explanation of how Momentary Blink ties in.

thedarkness · Joined: 13 Jul 2006 Posts: 459

Close, but take into account that if Vesuvan was ever in play as anything BUT the Sower, it would be a 0/0 and therefore die on state-based effect check.

It becomes a chosen creature in play *while still on the stack* and is therefore a Sower when it comes into play, so its Sower citp ability does trigger.

IberianWolf · Joined: 17 Nov 2006 Posts: 118

is anyone even bothering reading the damned thread?

IF YOU BLINK SOWER YOU DON'T GET ANOTHER CREATURE! read the many explanations... the creature leaves play, and comes back as a new permanent for as much as the game itself is concerned. so all you get is to choose a creature again (but you lose the first one you chose). if you use followed footsteps however, you might be able to get many creatures though.

also gorbadoc, vesuvan text says "as ~this~ comes into play", so you choose the creature BEFORE coming into play, and while it is resolving (meaning: you can't do anything after you choose the creature and before it comes into play). that's the same reason why you can't stifle a pithing needle.

seriously people, read the whole thread before posting.

Gorbadoc · Joined: 29 Oct 2007 Posts: 56

So it's the difference between "as" and "when", the difference (in Magic) being that "as" applies when it's put on the stack, whereas "when" applies when it resolves? That would make sense, if that's in fact how the Magic rules define "when" and "as".

Please calm down, Wolf. I was under the impression that we all had read the rest of the thread and we weren't still discussing it because it was already established that you lose one charm while gaining another. Here's a question, though: if I charm your Tarmagoyf with Sower, and a few turns later I Momentary Blink my Sower but pick your 'goyf as the new charm target, does the Tarmagoyf get summoning sickness? There was time on the stack between the first charm canceling and the second charm popping up, but my understanding of queued fast effects is that they are functionally simultaneous-- that in fact zero time elapses between the old charm and new charm.

Hardtrack · Joined: 10 Aug 2005 Posts: 268