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Sower of Temptation


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Gorbadoc



Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Hardtrack has the right way of analyzing it; the control effects are stacked "Static Abilities" (I know, they're more like state variables than static abilities. WOTC's nomenclature strikes again.).

Of course, if the return were a triggered ability (for example, if Sower's text said "... return controlled unit if Sower leaves play,"), then you'd get some strangeness. In the case where I charm, you charm, our Sowers die simultaneously in combat, you'd have a case where two effects want to resolve simultaneously and control would go to whoever's effect didn't resolve last. In that scenario, I have no clue which one gets precedence; precedence on that microscopic level has a bunch of exceptions if I recall correctly.
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lennin
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what would happen if i copied sower with a vesuvan then tunred it face down then blinked the vesuvan, would i lose control of the creature i stole
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Hardtrack



Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 651

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lennin wrote:
what would happen if i copied sower with a vesuvan then tunred it face down then blinked the vesuvan, would i lose control of the creature i stole

Yes, ~this object~ left play. It doesn't matter what it looks like, just that it remains in play. It also doesn't matter what it looks like when it leaves play.
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Gorbadoc



Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure whether you get to charm a creature with Vesuvan Shapeshifter in the first place. Its ability to copy a Sower of Temptation triggers when it comes into play. By the time the Vesuvan is imitating a Sower, the "comes into play" trigger is done and past.

Assuming you could charm a creature, though, here's how I believe it works:

When you interpret Sower's text, replace "Sower of Temptation" with "this particular permanent". It doesn't matter how much the stupid thing shapeshifts or transmogrifies or transubstantiates as long as it's still the same permanent. It could turn into an enchantment, an artifact, or your aunt Mary's tea cozy. As long as it is the same permanent and still in play, the charm effect remains in effect. No matter what form it's in, though, the moment that permanent leaves play, the charm effect expires. See here for an explanation of how Momentary Blink ties in.
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thedarkness



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 581

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Close, but take into account that if Vesuvan was ever in play as anything BUT the Sower, it would be a 0/0 and therefore die on state-based effect check.

It becomes a chosen creature in play *while still on the stack* and is therefore a Sower when it comes into play, so its Sower citp ability does trigger.
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IberianWolf



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 153

PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

is anyone even bothering reading the damned thread?

IF YOU BLINK SOWER YOU DON'T GET ANOTHER CREATURE! read the many explanations... the creature leaves play, and comes back as a new permanent for as much as the game itself is concerned. so all you get is to choose a creature again (but you lose the first one you chose). if you use followed footsteps however, you might be able to get many creatures though.


also gorbadoc, vesuvan text says "as ~this~ comes into play", so you choose the creature BEFORE coming into play, and while it is resolving (meaning: you can't do anything after you choose the creature and before it comes into play). that's the same reason why you can't stifle a pithing needle.


seriously people, read the whole thread before posting.
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Gorbadoc



Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So it's the difference between "as" and "when", the difference (in Magic) being that "as" applies when it's put on the stack, whereas "when" applies when it resolves? That would make sense, if that's in fact how the Magic rules define "when" and "as".

Please calm down, Wolf. I was under the impression that we all had read the rest of the thread and we weren't still discussing it because it was already established that you lose one charm while gaining another. Here's a question, though: if I charm your Tarmagoyf with Sower, and a few turns later I Momentary Blink my Sower but pick your 'goyf as the new charm target, does the Tarmagoyf get summoning sickness? There was time on the stack between the first charm canceling and the second charm popping up, but my understanding of queued fast effects is that they are functionally simultaneous-- that in fact zero time elapses between the old charm and new charm.
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Hardtrack



Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 651

PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gorbadoc wrote:
So it's the difference between "as" and "when", the difference (in Magic) being that "as" applies when it's put on the stack, whereas "when" applies when it resolves?

No, that's not what it means. "When" is a triggered ability. It triggers whenever the triggered condition is met. For CiP ability this means the creature it is on comes into play (i.e. resolves, leaves the stack and comes into play).

"As" is a replacement effect that changes how the object comes into play. You make the choice while it is resolving and it comes into play with that choice already in play. Voice of All comes into play with protection from the chosen colour, Ashling's Prerogative comes into play set to either even or odd, Vesuvan Shapeshifter comes into play as a copy of whatever creature is chosen (and it 'turns into something else' before triggers are checked, so you'll get the CiP ability of whatever you are copying).

Neither 'does' anything when you play the permanent they are on (put it on the stack).

Gorbadoc wrote:
If I charm your Tarmagoyf with Sower, and a few turns later I Momentary Blink my Sower but pick your 'goyf as the new charm target, does the Tarmagoyf get summoning sickness? There was time on the stack between the first charm canceling and the second charm popping up, but my understanding of queued fast effects is that they are functionally simultaneous-- that in fact zero time elapses between the old charm and new charm.

There is no such thing as 'fast effects' any more. Furthermore the control changing effect ending is instantaneous, because, once again, it's not a triggered ability, but simply an effect ending because the duration expired. The CiP ability is a trigger on the other hand and goes on the stack and can be responded too, which will resolve much later.

Basically what happens is as soon as the Sower of Temptation leaves play, you lose control of the Tarmogoyf, then and there, in the middle of the resolution of the Momentary Blink. Nothing has to trigger, resolve, go on the stack or anything. Your Sower leaves play, bam, instantly you lose control of the thing you were stealing, because the duration of the effect ended.

Then when the Blink returns the Sower (still during the resolution of the Blink) the CiP ability of Sower triggers. You can target the same Tarmo again, and when the triggered ability eventually resolves you regain control of the Tarmogoyf. By that time it will have regained summoning sickness, though, since you didn't control it continuously since the start of your turn.
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