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Tarmogoyf BANNED?!?!


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R3wind



Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why is every one stressing? I would pick up a play set of Grunts. If you don't want to join them, beat them in the head.
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ajvanadri



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 72

PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why do people keep insisting that the Grunt is better agaist Goyf then Shreikmaw?

Why run a card thats only good agaist 1 other card, over a card thats more versitile, and still deals with the other card you were trying to hose?
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Eldariel
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 277

PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grunt's good 'cause it's a 4/4, but ironically, there's little reason to play 'em over your own Tarmogoyfs and a deck has trouble supporting both so decks tend to just use Tarmo instead. Of course, Tarmo dies easy. But this is 'threats better than answers' all over again, which is funny when the threat is a 4/4 for 2. Seriously, since when has 4/4 for 2 been not-good-enough? Since Tarmo, I guess.
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R3wind



Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grunt is better in the way that you can get rid of the 'Goyf without spending more then 1W and with out losing a card. You also change the board state prob' in your favor.

Shriekmaw/Nekkrataal are better mid or late game answers.
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BattleofWits



Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 230

PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem isn't that Goyf is broken, it's that it's ubiquitous. When (nearly) every single deck in every format is saying "hey, why not put in Tarmogoyf?" and it makes the deck better, that's a problem.

I see it as Rishidan Port is Masques block, but to a larger extent. That card was so dominant in that block that it had to be banned.

A card like Jitte was insane in aggro decks and even found its way into some control decks. But when Goyf is going into combo decks as a plan B and an answer to other Goyfs, that is a problem.

Should Goyf be banned? Probably, but I doubt it will be as "there are answers to it" and "it's just a creature." It's without a doubt the best creature in Legacy and Extended and very good in Standard and Vintage.

In short, a 5/6 for 1G is really really really good.
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Malice



Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 91

PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tarmo is good, but i dont think ban worthy. I hate it but i hope it doesnt get banned so people keep making decks around a 35 dollar card that dies everytime to a 5 dollar slaughter pact or 10 cent tendrils. Ravager made a deck, mongrel made a deck, and psychatog made a deck, I think goyf is a good creature at a great price, but waaaaaaaaaaay overrated.
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bloosh123



Joined: 25 Jun 2006
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

um, Terror?
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Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fact is its a 0/1 for 1G, to even get 5/6 there must be a land, enchantment, creature, instant, and sorcery in the graveyard. And outside a discard deck odds are its not gonna be all fast doing that. in fact most decks generally only get it to a 2/3 or a 3/4. And then yes for 1G thats very good, but being as its usually past turn 4 by the time the thing gets 3/4 or 4/5, you already have a solution to it. That and it has no trample in a mostly aggro/anti aggro format.
Good? Yes. Broken? Hell no. I certainly wouldn't depend on it in any deck.
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derflippi
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 19 Mar 2005
Posts: 1402
Location: Weiterstad

PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To play Goyf, you need to play green mana sources in t2.

In t2, Goyf usually needs green man, too but it's not an isseu there. In t2 it is so i see not any reason to ban some vanilla creature.
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TugaChampion



Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 615

PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't been playing seriously for long (started on Guildpact) but I have knowledge of what the few latest T2 best decks have been. In Odyssey/Onslaught T2 madness was the best deck. You could also ply some other decks like Elves but the best one was Madness. Wild Mongrel was a solid creature 2/2 for 1G and had great syenergy with the rest of the deck. Odyssey block had Psychatog (which made Finkel a bad card and in TimeSpiral block it has proven to be good), Wild Mongrel, madness and Call of the Herd as it's stars (amybe more but those are the ones I know). Onslaught was all about creatures and I remember people saying it sucked because of that. Well it brought many of the most powerful Goblins ever printed (mainly Piledriver and Warchief but also a few more). They just get even better with the old goblins like Matron. Legions got the most bad comments of the block because it was all creatures. Scourge brought probably the best combo mechanic: Storm. Then it was time for Mirrodin (I gave up at this time). Affinity was broken and they printed amazingly powerful cards because of their syenergy with each other. They were not broken by themselves (except Skullclamp which is banned even in Legacy) but the huge syenergy they had meant that you either played affinity or you would have to play a lot of hate (and you would probably lose anyway). Kamigawa was a set with a few powerhouses like Isamaru, Jitte and Meloku and also the very useful Pithing Needle but most cards were way less powerful. They also printed Kataki to house affinity. Ravnica brought the new dual lands and although few cards are that good (Dark Confidant probably the best one and Helix and Remand being very good too) with this much fixing it was easy to make a deck with all cards from good to very good. Coldsnap sucked and besides Rite of Flame, Martyr and Rune Snag it has nothing. Then came Timespiral with the hypebasically had Damnation of all the timeshifted cards but it wasn't that good. It still brought several interesting cards mainly those that have flashback and really surprised WoTC (Blink and Teachings) and the Storm cards once again enabled several combos. Planar Chaos only had Damnation, Extirpate and Sulfur Elemental to try to take down martyr but it actually hurt Boros more. Future Sight looked bad but Tarmogoyf surprised everyone. They also wanted to give dredge some spotlight because it never had any good results in T2 so they printed Bridges and Narcomoebas (which can actually do way more damage to a format that Tarmogoyf). Tarmogoyf is good. If you are playing green you should play it. If your deck can handle the splash they you hsould play it. But it just goes there improving the deck a bit without creating a broken gamestate. There are answers for it and it's not broken. It's just a very good beater.
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ajvanadri



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 72

PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^^^
Omfg teh wall of text
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Bigshow



Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 1374
Location: Igloo town

PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

there is still creature hate. It shouldn't be banned
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Eldariel
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 277

PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Engrishskill wrote:
As far as I know, the only creature that has been banned is Martin of Stromgald and that was a ways back. Saying a creature is going to be banned is a pretty strong statement and I really don't see it.

Martin was banned back in ice age days because people were using him, kobolds and thopters to win really fast.


Wrong, they also banned Anaba Grunt in Homelands Set Constructed since he was way too broken. Further, Anaba Grunt saw consecutive banning in Legacy and Vintage too since Thunderbluff was breaking the formats in half. Anaba Grunt had broken synergies with Didgeridoo, generating ridiculous Minotaur-advantage and just plain winning whenever it was played. Tarmogoyf isn't even nearly on the same level.
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Vedrfolner



Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2325

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eldariel wrote:
Engrishskill wrote:
As far as I know, the only creature that has been banned is Martin of Stromgald and that was a ways back. Saying a creature is going to be banned is a pretty strong statement and I really don't see it.

Martin was banned back in ice age days because people were using him, kobolds and thopters to win really fast.


Wrong, they also banned Anaba Grunt in Homelands Set Constructed since he was way too broken. Further, Anaba Grunt saw consecutive banning in Legacy and Vintage too since Thunderbluff was breaking the formats in half. Anaba Grunt had broken synergies with Didgeridoo, generating ridiculous Minotaur-advantage and just plain winning whenever it was played. Tarmogoyf isn't even nearly on the same level.


Agree.

Not to mention Besserwisser, which had such an awesome ability that people almost stopped playing magic in the homelands/fallen empires period altogether. Magic has been on a steep, downward slope since those days...
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shadow483



Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fact is, Tarmogoyf may be the most powerful creature in standard, but if there is a 2 mana common, i.e terror, that can kill it with no real problems, it isn't broken.
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