Important things about Tarmogoyf and why it's bad

TugaChampion · Joined: 26 Jan 2006 Posts: 369

Lately more and more people have been playing Tarmogoyf in Gruul! I'll explain why it sucks.

Against DS which of the most popular decks is our worse match up you want to kill them as fast as possible. Playing a 0/1 or 1/2 on your 2nd turn just doesn't help. It will probably be big once they combo which btw is a bit late for him to do anything.

Against the mirror and other aggro. If they don't deal with it fast enough it can get big but it's easiy killed by a rift bolt or a seal of fire. Sometimes it's good but most times it's bad. If you want something that is good against aggro play Moldervine Cloak, one extra call of the Herd or something big.

Against control you need to put the most pressure as you can in the first few turns. You don't want to play burn on your first few turns (sometimes you'll do but that's not your base plan). If you go like rift bolt, tarmogoyf, than seal it will be a 2/3 but that's not impressive and you would have done more damage with kird ape + mauler or even just one of them and some other creature. In the late game it will be big but they have bigger and better treats and also cards like condemn, mortify and WoG which kill it no matter how big it is. And anyway you can't aim for the late game with Gruul. You can have 1 Demonfire to steal some games but it's not the main plan.

Then I know people will say lists with it have been winning. But if you pick up a good deck (this works mainly in aggro decks which are redundant) and take out a good creature and replace it with a bad/mediocre creature the deck doesn't become bad in that instant. It's still good, it's just that it isn't as good as it could. Lists with it won in Germany regionals and has top8ed 2 masters and probably top4ed 1 or 2 trials in here. Well lists without it have too! And while those that won may say: oh most of the time it was 2/3 or bigger. Well they probably got lucky that's why they did good. Some other players were probably playing it too and it was a 0/1 or 1/2 most of the time so they lost.

And I know what I'm talking about since I have been playing Gruul almost since PC became tournament legal.

kby · Joined: 03 Oct 2006 Posts: 145

lol..... its a beef..... and this is your argument.... btw... it gives them lategame tank

Spyx · Joined: 31 Oct 2004 Posts: 853

I agree about not playing Tarmogoyf... If wooded foothills was in the format then yes it would be a good card but now it's mediocre imho

Hell_Jesus · Joined: 10 Sep 2006 Posts: 3

Spell Snare, creature, rift bolt(or seal) --- normal game against control.

Seal, Rift, Creature, --- mirror.

Against discart or LD this thing is huge.

I tested and yes, sometimes is a bad card on turn 2. It's almost never a bad card on turn 3, if nothing is on the grave is because you are just winning.

KeySam · Joined: 14 Oct 2005 Posts: 539

i dont agree 100% with that statement, you could actually build an gruul deck where he could fit. You always can play Street Wrath 56 card decks arent bad Wink

(takin medircore cards out). If you then play horizion canopy which fits great in an aggro deck, of course you play then seal, riftbolt, char (seal + riftbolt a bloodthirst enablers) then you have an deck where tar actually fits great. Hes a powerhouse in the mirror if you play him at the rigth time (trading 2 for 1 is always good in the mirror) and vs control he can actually also be an good beatdown plan. And the question is if you play r/g gruul(not zoo) which other 2 drop you want to play over him? scab for sure but then??? With zoo you have lots of more/better 2 drops but i dont see any creature in gruul that would be clearly better in the 2 drops(maybe bloodknight but he coast RR)

Stucco · Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 549

I think it depends on the number you play. 1-2 Goyf isn't too bad because chances are you pull him mid-late game. By that time, you will probably have creatures, instants, sorceries, enchantments in graveyard. 2 for a 3/4 or 4/5 is a good deal. But the decks that run 3-4 are asking for some inconsistency. Pulling one early almost forces you to make mediocre plays just so it isn't a poor card.

Just my 2 cents.

Spyx · Joined: 31 Oct 2004 Posts: 853

Gruul Guildmage is better then Tarmogoyf

Eldar · Joined: 27 Nov 2006 Posts: 351 Location: Rochester

I like tarmogoyf in gruul it seems fine and gets around the problem of CoP: Red that I was running into without me having to draw a krosan grip.

yavin1 · Joined: 15 Jul 2006 Posts: 143

i think tin street hooligans are beast in gruul b.c they kill those signets and other pesky artifacts, while yielding a 2/1 beater, which targomorphy would be like a 2/3 by turn 3 (the turn it attakcs) and doesn't kill the artifact.

kornfeld · Joined: 29 Nov 2005 Posts: 4

oh well i think all of u are stupid.. tarmogoyf is a tank. in zoo it is so good, with seal of fire, helix char, riftbolt, horizon canopy and gemstone mine it gets big fast. and its not like your relying on this card to win.. it just helps. the only card being played that wouldnt be in the deck if goyf wasnt in it would be horizen canopy. .but i guess that just the way i see it?

Klos · Joined: 20 Jun 2006 Posts: 47 Location: Germany

if you play him early without anything in the grave u are a nub player. Hes a good card gruul should play and i would prefer 2-3 in a gruul deck but play with as many copies of him as long as u feel comfortable Razz

just remember he is good when u play him at the right time Razz

Cranemaker21 · Joined: 08 Jun 2006 Posts: 70

saying it is bad in the mirror is idiotic... it is at least a 2/3 if played right

for instance.. they lead t1 kird ape... u suspend rift bolt or seal of fire the kird ape if he doesnt have stomping ground... then turn two hes a 2/3

Maltabus · Joined: 10 Jan 2005 Posts: 53

The first thing every Gruul player needs to know (zoogoyf players, this doesn't apply to you) is that Tarmogoyf is **not** a two drop. Sure, there are the rare occasions where you play a rift bolt to kill a creature or your opponent plays something turn one, but most of the time this guy is a 4 drop that untaps two lands when he Comes into play.

As for him being a bad card --

Against Dragonstorm, he is only a weak card if they don't play Sleight of hand, Telling time, or remand in their first two turns. Granted, this isn't that rare of an occurence, but some choices in deck construction can change this drawback.

For instance, including Seal, Rift Bolt, and Might of Old Krosa in your build of Gruul will often make Angry Hans (as we affectionately call the new 'goyf) very large even if he has to swing turn three.

Against control, you **never** play this guy t2. He is the guy you drop after your opponent wraths away your board, at which point he's enough pressure on his own (usually a 4/5 at that point) to clean the game up if not answered. Also, decks not running destroy target creature are going to be hard pressed to kill him with Last Gasp, Volcanic Hammer, Sudden Death, Helix, etc. Due to state based effects if you play him post WoG/Damnation.

In the mirror...Angry Hans is literally a house. Play out your team, they're playing the *same* cards you are, increasing your odds of his p/t being at least 3/4, and he's cheaper than FB coth, Solifuge, Burning tree, etc. Usually offering you the tempo to play him, seal a guy, suspend a rift bolt, drop that rusalka, leave mana open for rusalka activation, etc, etc.

This is merely the result of my testing, and may not reflect anyone's opinion other than mine.

Flame on.

TugaChampion · Joined: 26 Jan 2006 Posts: 369

Post WoG you want a Solifuge not tarmogoyf. And if you taking out 2drops for him you'll have to play him turn 2 many times. Playing it "at the right time" can hurt your early pressure while any other 2 drop would be much better. Which control decks don't run white? Only UR Tron and Dralnu. Well those are already good match ups and Dralnu can still kill it. All the other control decks have Faith's Fetters for post WoG removal. That's why you play Solifuge after WoG because they are tapped out, they can only kill it with another WoG and it also has haste which means it will always deal 4 damage even if they WoG again next turn.

Against the mirror Call is card advantage, cloak powers up any guy and if you want something really big play Spectral Force is the SB which is always a 8/8.

Cranemaker21 · Joined: 08 Jun 2006 Posts: 70

Tarmogoyf is only good when there is interactionbetween the two players... i think in t2, interaction applies enough to warrant his inclusion... if u don't play fine.. but he is stilll i fine man... there have been gruul decks taht have put up results with goyf in it, i have seen goyf how up in almost any deck playing green, gruul included. This card doe not replace solifuge. it replaces burning tree or another slot. it is a card that is almost always good on turn 4 and in the right situation can be played on t2. in matchups like dredge he is a powerhouse even if yoiu dont put any cards in the graveyard. against decks with copulsive research.. they think twice b4 putting a card type that isnt already in the graveyard in the bin. they can not just print a card taht is a 3/4 or 4/5 all the time for 1G, it has to have a drawback... and if that drawback is on t2 it wouldnt bebest to playhim then o well, it is better than having to always pay 3 or 4 mana for a crit bigger than a 3/3