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UW Control...Where's it gone?


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Tom_Sieve



Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 38

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 9:06 am    Post subject: UW Control...Where's it gone? Reply with quote

I've made a UW control for next week's FNM (This week's FNM is a draft..), and I'd like to get some honest feedback on it now that I have plenty of time to tweak it. Should I throw cucumbers in it and make some pickles? Should I pack it full of Tron goodness? Should I add a completely different color for some three-colored shenanigans (I'd really rather not, considering that would require more rare lands and a few cards I'd have to negotiate for..)? All constructive feedback is, naturally appreciated [Nonconstructive feedback, including "This deck sucks, play Pickles", "My deck's better", and "penis lol" will result in my turning into O-Kagachi and crapping the offender into Takenuma. =D Without further ado..

UW Control. And stuff.

Lands [22]
4 Hallowed Fountain
2 Nimbus Maze
2 Adarkar Wastes
2 Flagstones of Trokair
8 Islands
4 Plains

Creatures [5]
3 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
2 Akroma, Angel of Wrath

Spells [26]
4 Repeal
4 Rune Snag
4 Faith's Fetters
4 Remand
4 Think Twice
3 Wrath of God
3 Cancel

Enchantments [3]
3 Sacred Mesa

Artifacts [4]
4 Azorius Signet

Sideboard [15]
4 Aven Mindcensor
3 Disenchant
2 Draining Whelk
3 Piracy Charm
3 Aeon Chronicler

The deck's pretty straightforward; control the board, drop Akroma and/or Sacred Mesa ftw. I've been considering replacing the Cancels with Delays, considering Teferi and all, but I decided not to rely too heavily on him. Aven Mindcensor is for going against D-Storm (In response to your Gigadrowse..), Disenchant is for the off-chance an artifact or enchantment gives me trouble, Draining Whelk and Aeon Chronicler is used against other control, Piracy Charm is against Boros (And MGA running Groundbreaker). What worries me is how little straightforward UW control I've seen in months on this forum (Tron and Pickles are the closest I've seen yet, and I really do like Pickles..). So...Yeah, throw me a friggin' bone here. =)
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Bozo



Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Posts: 107

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't run Sadcred Mesa atm. It's a very good card and all, but Sulfur Elementals in Tron and Angelfire and Gruul make it useless. It will wind up being a dead card a lot of the time I suspect. You definitely want to be running Urza's Factory, that card is the sauce. You could try running Rewind maindeck so that you could be like Dralnu and play stuff eot, and it helps your matchup against Dragonstorm because of the whole Gigadrowse thing. Piracy Charm seems kinda weak but w/e, You could try maindecking Whelk's, and you might want to run a mystical teachings engine. Seems ok, but if I were you, I would just run the Dralnu list with maindeck Damnations, and if you need a better aggro m/u just run tendrils and stuff.
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aldaryn



Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 501

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this has a lot of potential still, makes me consider ditching the red in my angelfire..


3 sacred mesa md is too much, and maybe only 1 akroma, i think teferi is your best kill card

i'd say
1 mesa
1 akroma
3 teferi

gives you 3 more slots

also faith's fetters is sometimes dead, i'd go to 3, and go to 4 wrath

i'd also cut 1 repeal, then you have room for 4 rewind

i'd like to see a tiny bit more card draw, maybe foresee or tidings or compulsive, and cut the cancels since you have rewinds now, and they're better for the d-storm matchup

the thing i like best is lots of basic lands here - i'd almost tell you to ditch flagstones for plains, actually i will. blood/magus of the moon is everywhere. i'd also change adarkar wastes to azorius chancery, so you have a few more land drops.

also trickbind is better than aven mindcensor against d-storm, since you can trickbind gigadrowse and then still trickbind d-storm... or you might try martyr of sands s-b, wrecks aggro and lets you survive d-storm then wrath.

also yes you need 1 urza's factory for sure, i'd make it a 23rd land
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Shagrath



Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 10:46 am    Post subject: .. Reply with quote

lol penis
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kfcman



Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 733

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1-2 Urzas factory would be nice. since you're only 2 color and you're not running tron it shouldnt your mana base at all

also, id say keep it at 4 fetters, 3 wrath, fetters is never dead with factories, and storage lands in the format, also wrath jus kills dude (duh) fetters effectively kills them and un-chars you. plus fetter has a great amount of versatility. also u would either drop cancels for mana leaks or drop them for card draw, like careful consideration, as your only card draw is cantrips
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Spyx



Joined: 31 Oct 2004
Posts: 1188

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

22 land is not enough
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maltabus



Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since playing U/W control is essentially the counterpart to dralnu (albeit with a better aggro matchup?) I'd suggest the following changes to improve the deck's consistency and endgame.

MD
-3 Cancel - Rewind is simply better
-3 Sacred Mesa - As much as I love this card, there are too many Sulfur Elementals around to play him.
-2 Faith's Fetters - The card is too slow and vulnerable against most aggro (see scorched rusalka's popularity and gruul's t4-5 kills) and is most useful against huge threats or control mirrors (where you can fetters a Urza's Factory, for instance).
-1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath (she's a beast, but too slow to risk having two in your hand)
-1 Repeal (awesome card, but unless you expect tons of gruul/aggro in your FNM, 4 is too many. Almost dead against lots of control decks)
-1 Teferi - you're not going to be able to play draw-go control, and making your wrath a 2 for 2 with aggro isn't good.
+1 Wrath of God (You have to have this. Too good to play 3of)
+1 Urza's Factory (good win condition, and costs the same as mesa to make a token a turn (2w to keep it alive, 2w to make a guy, vs. 7 for factory)
Switch your lands to snow and add
+3 Mouth of Ronom - Good against aggro, absolutely the stone cold nuts against Teferi and Lightning Angels.
+4 Rewind - better than Cancel, good against dragonstorm and aggro. Auto include.
+2 Aeon Chronicler - The best anti-control win condition in blue standard.

Hope that helps! Trying to get 3 or 4 Chroniclers might not be bad, and Temporal Isolation has proven to be awesome in testing, so cutting fetters all the way for them could be good, especially with repeal main. Peace.
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kfcman



Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 733

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

factory doesnt cost the same to make a token as mesa
mesa essentially makes a token a turn for 2WW
1W to sac for upkp and 1W for excess dudes, factory takes 8 mana, becuase you have to tap the factory as well 7 + factory = 8
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TofuBoy



Joined: 07 Oct 2005
Posts: 127

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kfcman wrote:
factory doesnt cost the same to make a token as mesa
mesa essentially makes a token a turn for 2WW
1W to sac for upkp and 1W for excess dudes, factory takes 8 mana, becuase you have to tap the factory as well 7 + factory = 8


Ya, but the fact is that sulf elem is gg for the mesa, whereas with the factory you either get 2 damage through or force a block.
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aldaryn



Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 501

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

apart from minor numbers, i pretty much agree with everything maltabus said. I'm not sure abou Aeon Chroniclers in a counterspell deck, though, and you're inviting Dralnu to play Teferi and keep your chronicler in oblivion (unless you have Teferi out first, of course).

I'm in fact tempted to play this myself, a little less fragile than Angelfire though I lose Helix and Detritivore, Teferi basically replaces Lightning Angel and Akroma replaces hellkite, and it would mean a better dragonstorm matchup..

Is there room for Court Hussar in this deck? Or is that making it too much like Angelfire, you'd be tapping out when you want to counter stuff...


Also Riptide Pilferer in the sideboard would rock Dralnu's face off.
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kfcman



Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 733

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TofuBoy wrote:
kfcman wrote:
factory doesnt cost the same to make a token as mesa
mesa essentially makes a token a turn for 2WW
1W to sac for upkp and 1W for excess dudes, factory takes 8 mana, becuase you have to tap the factory as well 7 + factory = 8


Ya, but the fact is that sulf elem is gg for the mesa, whereas with the factory you either get 2 damage through or force a block.


thats great and that wasnt my point at all, i was one of the people telling him to put in factories, i was simply givin him the correct information
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scwizard



Joined: 14 Nov 2005
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should add two lands. 22 lands is very low for a control deck. My aggro deck runs 23 lands (+4 elves) and flows very well (Horizon helps with that).

Try Aeon Chronicler MD. You can suspend it as an instant with Tef out.
"Rather than play this card from your hand, pay X and remove it from the game with Y time counters on it".

+[s]1[/s] 3 Condem may also be nice.

+some Riptide Pilferer MD or SB maybe.
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Tom_Sieve



Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 38

PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:05 am    Post subject: =D Reply with quote

Wow. Thanks for so much feedback (And productive feedback, at that! ..Er..Aside from the 'lol penis' provided by StormTrooper, that is). Really, every suggestion thrown down here is much, much more then I had ever expected.

To be fair, when I first put Sacred Mesa in I didn't (carefully) consider Sulfur Elemental- which, yes, pwns Sacred Mesa. But Ixodor made a very good point in resolving it against Dralnu and using it for Dragonstorm Survival (Even though Aven Mindcensor's help towards that, too). However, as stated many times before, Sacred Mesa is one too many. I'll keep it as a MB win condition that can be swapped out for something in the SB, however, considering the almost-complete absence of Sulfur Elemental at my local FNM (Which is why it never came to mind in the first place..).

So, for the moment, -1 Sacred Mesa.

I really like Rewind; the trouble is, I think I have maybe two if I look hard enough x.x That's easily solved at the upcoming FNM, I think.

So, if all goes well, -3 Cancel, -1 Repeal, +4 Rewind.

Riptide Pilferer is much more my cup of tea, and I figure that Wrath of God is much more likely to cover my butt against aggro then anything else.

So, in the sideboard, -3 Piracy Charm, +3 Riptide Pilferer. Maybe switching out one or more Disenchant for the full 4 Merfolk Rogueness? =D

Aldaryn, I agree. x.x Magus of the Moon's just plain...Icky. -2 Flagstones, +2 Plains.

Maltabus, the only reason I don't go all-out Snow is because of the lack of snow lands I currently possess, although I agree completely: Mouth of Ronom rocks the living hell out of anything worthwhile with 4 or less toughness. Until I can manage to go snow, or if I go snow at all, I need to keep up with some win conditions. As for Chroniclers, while I agree that they're freakin' awesome against most control mirrors, they don't shine quite so well against aggro (Which is why they're sideboarded. n.n; ). And maybe I should put the fourth Repeal in the sideboard, along with a fourth Wrath and a fourth Riptide Pilferer? I also like the idea of Temporal Isolation being used, but would it be worth sacrificing Faith's Fetter's life gain and prevention of the targeted permanant's activated abilities from being used?

I agree that I need more lands despite my signet shenanigans, and Uzra's Factory is the land to use. So, maybe -1 signet paired with the subtracted Sacred Mesa to add +2 Uzra's Factory?

I'd like to test out the Aven Mindcensors against D-Storm before I take them out for Trickbind; I have all the Trickbind I need, but the way it seems is that I'd play Mindcensor in response to their Gigadrowse. If they don't find a Hellkite in the top 4 cards of their library when the first D-Storm resolves, I'd survive long enough to drop a Wrath of God on the field (Or block with flying Pegasus tokens..). To be fair, though, the Trickbind's are likely to take precendence just because they're so freakin' awesome and Rewinds would help seal the deal.

Beyond that, it seems to be more of a matter of personal taste (Whether to add a wrath and subtract a Faith's Fetters or not, for example). The simple truth of the matter is that I won't get a fourth Wrath until tomorrow, of which it'll either go MB or SB (MB v. Aggro, SB v. Control). I'd consider Condemns if I had more than one, too. x.x

My biggest concern now are the potential win conditions available for UW control at the moment. So far, the vast majority would rather not roll with Sacred Mesa, and for good reason; the reason why I don't switch out for other win conditions is because, frankly, I'm not sure which would be optimal for this build. Adarkar Valkyrie, maybe?

I really like Court Hussar, especially considering how it sifts through the deck and adds a creature of your own on the field; the trouble is that, yes, I think it'd make me tap out and leave the opponent free to act without the nigh-paranoia of their spell being countered. It's the same reason why I haven't thrown Compulsive Research in the deck; what's the point of playing a control deck when you let an opponent breath easy for a turn? ~.^

Okay, so here are the basic questions: What win conditions should be thrown in if Mesa's thrown out completely? What possible draw could go into the deck without sacrificing the typical paranoia that accompanies playing against someone with a few untapped islands in play (And what would you take out for it?)? Is there any other way to make this deck better, short of the really, *REALLY* good suggestions made by those who posted here?

Please, keep the ideas coming, guys. This post is relevant to my interests. =3

UW Control. Tweak #1

Lands [24]
4 Hallowed Fountain
2 Nimbus Maze
2 Adarkar Wastes
2 Uzra's Factory
8 Islands
6 Plains

Creatures [5]
3 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
2 Akroma, Angel of Wrath

Spells [26]
3 Repeal
4 Rune Snag
4 Faith's Fetters
4 Remand
4 Think Twice
3 Wrath of God
4 Rewind

Enchantments [2]
2 Sacred Mesa

Artifacts [3]
3 Azorius Signet

Sideboard [15]
4 Aven Mindcensor [Probably Trickbind, the next time around]
3 Disenchant
2 Draining Whelk
3 Riptide Pilferer
3 Aeon Chronicler
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DimeBagRiff



Joined: 06 May 2007
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a list that I've been testing all damn day!!! I think the only META deck I haven't played against is MonoBlackRack... and I've done pretty well...
Snowlands and Mouth are a very good addition, TRUST ME... it's a good way to get rid of any beefy's at instant speed if it has resolved due to not being able to counter it... ESPECIALLY Sulfer Elemental's... The only bad beat you get is Gruul (no surprise tho), but you could be able to handle it if you play your cards right... (no pun intended)... anyways, you can test out my list and see what you think, plz leave feedback on my list for any improvements and/or critisms... L8ER B8ERS!!!

// Lands
6 [CS] Snow-Covered Island
4 [DIS] Hallowed Fountain
4 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
3 [CS] Mouth of Ronom
3 [DIS] Azorius Chancery
2 [TSP] Urza's Factory
2 [TSP] Calciform Pools

// Creatures
3 [TSP] Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
2 [PLC] Aeon Chronicler
1 [TSB] Akroma, Angel of Wrath

// Spells
4 [9E] Rewind
4 [FUT] Delay
4 [RAV] Remand
4 [DIS] Azorius Signet
3 [9E] Wrath of God
3 [TSP] Temporal Isolation
3 [TSP] Think Twice
3 [GP] Repeal
1 [9E] Tidings
1 [TSB] Sacred Mesa

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PLC] Riptide Pilferer
SB: 3 [TSP] Trickbind
SB: 3 [TSB] Disenchant
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [9E] Circle of Protection: Red
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Apos



Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 757

PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i went second in a trial last year or sumthing with a list that is very similar to yours ninshan

here it is

//NAME: Untitled Deck
5 Island
3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Plains
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Adarkar Wastes
3 Azorius Chancery
3 Urza's Factory

4 Faith's Fetters
3 Wrath of God
1 Condemn

3 Think Twice
4 Ancestral Vision

4 Serra Avenger
3 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir

4 Rune Snag
4 Remand
2 Rewind
4 Cancel

SB: 1 Swift Silence
SB: 3 Spell Snare
SB: 1 Rewind
SB: 3 Commandeer
SB: 3 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 3 Condemn
SB: 1 Wrath of God

later i added the lands to be less vulnurable to moons

well its everything out of date but
maybe that still may help u
Serra Avenger is awsome
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