Saffi/Crypt champion combo questions

JarsMohella · Joined: 25 Jun 2006 Posts: 25

I'm planning on taking Project X to a local MSS tourney and I had a few questions about the combo itself.

1. Can someone explain in excruciating detail how to announce the combo and stack the triggers?

2. I have a saffi and a soul warden in play and as I play the crypt champion my opponent kills either my soul warden or saffi. Can I bring back either of them with crypt champion's ability and start the combo off from there?

3. What are some ways of disrupting the combo I should watch out for?

4. I'm aware that most builds use the wishboards now, but does anyone still use conventional sideboarding strategy? What do you typically side in/out versus the big three (U/R tron, Dragonstorm, Gruul) What strategies do your wishboards incorporate to make these matchups better?

5. And finally, does anyone want to share their experience with the deck? Match-ups, tips, etc?

Thanks for all of your help!

Thorns · Joined: 16 Aug 2006 Posts: 810 Location: Rath

I can answer some of the questions...

1. No can do... I just know it works and concede Laughing

2. Because of the way the stack works, yes.

3. Obvious ones come to mind: Sudden Death/Shock, Darkblast, Shock/Char/Volcanic Hammer/Seal of Fire, the black Pact (maybe)... Then there's bounce too. The colors you have to be careful with are mostly black, red and blue, in that order of danger.

4. Sorry

5. Never played against or with the deck...

TofuBoy · Joined: 07 Oct 2005 Posts: 123

1. Play Crypt.
The Stack
[Top]
Sac Saffi Targetting CC
Crypt Champion Return Ability
Crypt Champion Sac for not paying R ability
[Bottom]
Saffi goes to grave, Crypt Champion returns it, dies, Crypt Chammpion comes back and the cycle repeats. All the while Soul Warden/Essence Warden are triggering.

2. Yes.
[Top]
CC return trigger (targetting whatever he killed)
Sac ability
[Bottom]

Let the return ability resolve, sac Saffi, and combo off.

3. Extirpate mostly. But that's another use for the Glittering Wish. Voidstone Gargoyle naming saffi.

KeySam · Joined: 14 Oct 2005 Posts: 491

1.+2. where explained above

3. withered wretch, tormods crypt, leyline... stops the deck, enough burn also does. And instant burn can just shut the combo of (killing the wadens or the creature makers while you are gaining life/creating tokens).

4.
http://www.magic-league.com/deck/31830/project_x.html#Project%20X14682
a decklist without the wishes i think when you looking at the side it should be clear what he sided when.

5. i didnt palyed it often but i have to say, you have a good mu vs dredge the bridge, i didnt played gruul or dstorm often but it was quite a fair thing. no more mu expirence from here Wink

gl at you tourney

MaksymG · Joined: 24 Apr 2006 Posts: 174

Ok, first of all I'd like to say that project X is not the easiest deck to play and although you can have great success with it it takes practice and lots of it in order to play the deck at the level it is supposed to be played. Every little detail needs to be considered as even the lands you play and don't play, the order you play them in and every other minute thing makes a difference with this deck. Having said that I'd be happy to answer your questions.

In regards to your first question, in order to pull of the combo you need to have either one soul warden in play and a saffi in your graveyard plus a way to get crypt champion on the board or one saffi in play and a soul warden in your graveyard and a way to get crypt champion in play. When crypt champion resolves you ALWAYS-and I mean ALWAYS-place the dying trigger on the stack first. Following this you stack the return trigger a creature with CC 3 or less trigger, in this way the return will always happen before the crypt champion dies ensuring that if you have a saffi in your graveyard you will be able to get it back in time to target Crypt Champion before he hits the graveyard. At that point it is fairly easy, once you have the triggers on the stack sack the saffi targeting the crypt champion so that even if they trickbind Saffi's activated ability the return trigger will still bring saffi back right before Crypt Champion is about to die and you can target him again. If they have no disruption then Saffi will hit the graveyard and the saffi ability will resolve following which you can return it with the crypt champion return trigger. Take note here that the Crypt Champion return trigger does not target and therefor you have time to get saffi in the graveyard between the time the trigger is put on the stack and the time it resolves. At that point your combo takes off, as once the Crypt Champion dies Saffi's trigger will go on the stack and Crypt Champion will return to play gaining you one life from the soul warden and once again stacking his come into play triggers in a way where saffi will come onto the field and be able to target Crypt Champion before he dies. This becomes slightly more fragile if you have a soul warden in play and a saffi in the graveyard. What happens here is that When you play Crypt Champion you must once again stack the triggers in a manner where the return trigger will resolve first then before the death trigger occurs you have to sacrifice saffi targeting crypt champion. In this manner it is more fragile because in case number 1 you already had an active Saffi and so the return trigger was a welcome redundancy sicne you could right off the bat target the champion. Those are the exact steps with which you take off. Note that case 1 was assuming you have BOTH saffi and soul warden in play and case 2 assumes that only soul warden is in play. If you only have saffi in play and soul warden in your graveyard the steps become similar to that of case 2 as you must return the soul warden with crypt champion's initial return trigger before going into the endless crypt champion saffi cycle.

So cases 1, 2, and 3 outline exactly how to go off in any given circumstance. Cases 2 and 3 outline how to go off if someone kills either soul warden or saffi.

In ragards to disrupting combos the two major ones are trickbind and extirpate as you cannot respond to them. Extirpate will often hit any single combo piece when it is in the bin stopping you from taking off. This is most relevant with saffi and crypt champion in the middle of the combo as they are constantly switching between being in play and being in the graveyard and a well timed extirpate can spell out THE END for you. Having said that you can try taking off when your opponent is tapped out (remember there is no rush, you gain infinite life in the process and so just like any combo deck you can wait until the last minute or until you have the greatest possible chance of success before taking off). Some control decks will often kill essence warden if they see one in order to extirpate it as early as possible and stop you from having any chance of going on. Seeing as how the deck runs white, I found that playing 2 of each soul warden and essence warden can help augment this. Trickbind is another issue atogether but if you have BOTH saffi and essence warden in play then the only way they can stop you from going off is by trickbinding the crypt champion's death trigger. This is not that bad as you will still get 4 points worth of power onto the board and get a 3 CC creature back.

In regards to the wish board,personally I prefer to play the regular board version having extirpate and persecute as the sideboard staples and the other slots dedicated to whatever you feel the metagame will throw at you. Faith's fetters is a great answer to grull and coupled with the fact that you maindeck hierarchs and they have no hard combo disruption that matchup is easy for you. Dragonstorm requires castigates and persecutes or maybe a well timed extirpate, it is actually one of the only matches I am not 100% positive on the sideboard and so that call is up to you. You can go for beatdown plan and try to take him out before he goes off, but it is safer to stick with combo because once you go off the dragons will do nothing. Furthermore an early essence warden or two coupled with a Heirarch can put you out of dragon range and hopefully you can force them to combo out prematurely to stop your creatures and go off the following turn. In respect to tron, I have not played many games against the current tron lists but from what I understand persecute and castigate can still provide enough relief for you to give you the time and opportunity you need to take off.

Once again, the deck is one of the most skill intensive in the current T2 meta to play correctly and if you are playing at an MSS field then something like dragonstorm with a good board and some practice will probably get you just as far but if you are set on playing this deck the above should be a begginer's guide. Note that I made no referance about chord of calling although that card can win you games you would otherwise have no right of winning (like going off in response to dragonstorm comboing out, or at the end of turn when a control player has tapped out to flashback think twice or play teachings or what not). I will gladly test with you anytime I am online so drop a messege here if you are interestedin testing and tell me an estimate as to when you will be online so I could get into the chat channel.

Take it easy,

M4ks

MaksymG · Joined: 24 Apr 2006 Posts: 174

LOL I started typing my post when noone else answered and I ended up three posts behind.

sup3rk00pa · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 3

here is an honest reply: dont play this deck unless your metagame is crappy. extirpate kills you, so does sudden ANYTHING and even stonecloaker shuts you down. God forbid they suspend a ditritivore for 2, you lose then too. wish boards are better and heirarch ands glare should be in it.
have a way to deal with aggro and cancel.

Magx · Joined: 07 Sep 2004 Posts: 332

and correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there a way to stop the combo with Sudden Shock/Sudden Death or any burn ?

MaksymG · Joined: 24 Apr 2006 Posts: 174

sudden death and sudden shock work only in SOME situations if you know how to time everything properly

In order to fully shut you down they need 2 of any sudden card except extirpate, burn is very inconsistent because it always allowes for responses in the forms of chord of challing and the like and god forbid you have hierarch so that you can regen, either way any deck packing burn is a favorable matchup in any case as the elephants kill them when coupled with wall of roots. As I stated before the deck takes IMMENSE skill to play properly and the fact that people are making statements that someone should drop this deck reflect ignorance on their part about the way the deck works. It is one of the most resiliant combo decks in T2 for some time because unlike dstorm and heartbeat before it, this deck can still win by beating you with confidant, hippy and elephant. You need the proper build and enough practice but the deck is topnotch having very few poor matchups and even then those matchups can easily be augmented by boarding in the right cards and playing properly.

thedarkness · Joined: 13 Jul 2006 Posts: 457

Alright. How about I try this, since I guarantee I've played project X longer than anyone but 2 other people on the league, both of whom have since quit. Some of you have offered very confusing, and in some cases WRONG answers. For example, Glittering Wish can't target Voidstone Gargoyle. Reading is tech.

In order to combo off with Saffi and Warden in play:

Play Crypt Champion.

Top of stack: Return to play ability
Bottom of stack: Sacrifice if you didn't pay red abilitity
Any place of your chosing: Warden/Teysa/Sek'kuar ability

In response to return to play ability, sacrifice Saffi targeting the champion (important to remember for future questions)

Return to play ability resolves, returning Saffi

Crypt Champion is sacrificed and returns to play, putting the abilities back on the stack

If the opponent knows what they are doing, you can just say "combo off," and if they ask to make sure you know how to do it, the shortest answer I've found has been "stack return on top, sac on bottom, sac saffi, return saffi, repeat."

2. Short answer is yes. Longer answer:

Play Crypt Champion.

Top of stack: return to play ability
Bottom of stack: sacrifice ability

Resp to any part of the stack before the champion is sacrificed: sac Saffi, targeting the champion

Resolve the return ability, returning the Warden

Sacrifice the Crypt Champion, it returns to play

Top of the stack: return to play ability
Bottom of the stack: sacrifice ability

Resolve the return to play ability, returning Saffi

Response to the sacrifice ability still on the stack, sac Saffi

Repeat and win.

3. Sudden Death or Sudden Shock or any other instant removal that can target the Crypt Champion in response to his being targeted by Saffi. If he is killed before Saffi's ability resolves, he goes to the gy without returning, and if they use a sudden death/shock, there's nothing you can do about it, such as chord for a second saffi and sacrifice it too.

4. That's a tricky question, honestly. I'm not sure I can answer it here. If you want to pm me on IRC, I'm on fairly often. But the strength of the wishboard is the ability to get a specific card for a specific matchup, primarily a castigate for dragonstorm if you run 3 md and 1 sb. But I haven't tested to try and find an answer specifically to UR Tron, and Gruul is only a problem post board, as Blood Moon is a serious issue that can only really be reliably resolved with cards that you can't target with a wish.

5. The deck is very strong, especially in a meta where it isn't expected, and ESPECIALLY if you play it well. In short, practice a LOT. Get to know the matchups based on your own play style, since this is one of the few decks in the format that differs greatly from itself, from person to person. But as I said above, if you want to discuss the deck, feel free to pm me your list and I'll help you out if I can.

EDIT:

Also, having read the first post by M4ks, it occurs to me that A: I did forget extirpate, which is the harsh one, because it means no more combo and they have access to removal in the form of damnation, etc, which makes a manual beating difficult. B: I didn't ever think about Trickbind. No one really boards it in vs project X, though now that I think about it I couldn't say why.

slim1815 · Joined: 16 Jan 2007 Posts: 5

Reading IS tech. If you would have read that response correctly, he meant glittering wish to target whatever was extirpated, not gargoyle. The Voidstone Gargoyle naming Saffi was a new sentence.

thedarkness · Joined: 13 Jul 2006 Posts: 457

Yeah, last I checked periods separated sentences. However, rereading it for the fifth time I get it. And anyone with half a brain cell devoted to reading would notice that, since that "sentence" was a fragment, and therefore grammatically nonsensical, it could be interpreted any one of a number of ways, the most logical of which would be the one IN CONTEXT.

Try to incorporate logic into your arguments to a greater extent than grammar was incorporated into that fragment. Razz

English is also tech.

onecleanceli · Joined: 27 Mar 2005 Posts: 228

to disrupt with burn, you let them sac saffi, and with saffi's ability (to return) on the stack, you in response, kill the champion, when saffi's ability resolves, champion is not there to be returned, and then you hand them a receipt and say 'thank you come again'.. the suddens (death/shock) work without in response, b/c they cant respond by sac'ing saffi, but the champion is the one you have to kill to disrupt it, or any g.yard manipulation works just as easily as stated above (stonecloaker, crypt, wretch, leyline, extirpate, etc.)... the deck takes alot of practice to play it completely correctly and there are alot of different decklists card for card.. i personally like the addition of bitter ordeal since you can essentially kill them that turn rather then waiting for the next turn (if teysa is out)

thedarkness · Joined: 13 Jul 2006 Posts: 457

If you have 7 mana, Ordeal is the sex. Not flaming it, I actually like it, but I've never gotten to test it yet.

MaksymG · Joined: 24 Apr 2006 Posts: 174

ordeal is the way to go, and unless you use wish board there is no room to properly include teysa or the other token generator, the reason is that they do not really serve as alternate win conditions since if the combo is disrupted by something along the lines of extirpate it will take out either saffi or the champion so the inclusion of the other two "soul warden replacements" is irrelevant and will often times give you draws that are irrelevent. Having said that bitter ordeal is just sexy in that deck as you dont even need soul warden just a chord of challing or 7 mana with a saffi in play or in the graveyard