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Magic Workstation Shuffler


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Magx



Joined: 07 Sep 2004
Posts: 452

PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 7:24 am    Post subject: Magic Workstation Shuffler Reply with quote

ok, now, WHAT THE FUCK

I love this program but I'm freaking tired of the randomness of the this fucking shuffler... can't someone do a better version, plz ?

it's NOT normal that at EACH game, I take a mulligan to FIVE, to MAYBE have a good hand...

plz someone, do something about that
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Laplie



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 561

PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jorbes wrote:
Taken from my post on mtgsalvation:

With deckfiles having lines like this

20 [TSP] Island

You already start of with a 20!! card land clump of Islands alone, getting it down to like 5 or 6 is in fact quite an acomplishment


This is not quite accurate. The original state of the deck doesn't really matter with the algorithm used.

As for the original poster, if you have to mulligan to 5 every game, maybe something is wrong with your deck? Most people don't have to mull to 5.

Here's one of the best articles on the MWS shuffle: http://www.mwsgames.com/index.php/MWS_Shuffler . One of the more important parts is towards the bottom:

Quote:
The most startling point is that even if we shuffle like crazy for the full three minutes we are allowed, land will clump together. To double check my calculations, I used a computer to simulate 100,000 shuffles from the above deck, and the average number of adjacent pairs of land was 9.18 - right where the probability said it should be. I also had three clumps of three lands and a clump of four lands. Calculations, similar to the ones done above, show that you should expect three clumps of three lands and one clump of four land.
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TD



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 110

PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

-4 Whining
+4 Knowing what you're talking about

The MWS shuffler is fine. The common thread in all your problems is you. The shuffler works just fine and dandy, and I've never had problems with it for that reason. It is a fine shuffling algorithm. People are just whiners.

The problem is not the shuffler. The problem is your lack of skill/deckbuilding ability/ect.
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DaanP



Joined: 31 Oct 2004
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can we please stop the 'oh i hate the mws shuffler'-thing. just cause you wont get near perfect land/spell ratios like in appr(which is not random at all) doesn't mean its bad, actually it's better. Play some games with real cards and you will get manascrewed using 43 lands.dec(ok a bit of over the top, but im trying to prove a point) and you will get flooded with you super slick only 1 cc aggro decks with 16 lands. It happens, its part of the game, live with it.

cheerio!
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thedarkness



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 580

PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 11:07 am    Post subject: Re: Magic Workstation Shuffler Reply with quote

Magx wrote:
I love this program but I'm freaking tired of the randomness of the this fucking shuffler... can't someone do a better version, plz ?


Dunno, could just be me, but I thought the whole point of shuffling was TO randomize the deck. :\ Am I missing something here?
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Dwarth



Joined: 21 Feb 2007
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What you have to understand is that randomizing the deck and putting the deck in a "1 land - 2 cards" configuration are two completely different things.
As said above, it is absolutely normal to observe clumps in a randomize deck. You juste have to make your decks so that you can still play while being somewhat flooded or screwed, learn to mulligan and learn to stop crying when your deck does not cooperates. It happens to everyone, IRL or online. You can either accept it or stop playing. Complaining about a perfectly correct shuffler won't help.
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SOAD



Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 235
Location: In my Comp

PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh men not again, the shuflers are fine. The players are wrong, thats it and that will it be till someone can explain us how is the algorythm wrong or some sort.

I can see it in the furture: OMG the G.O. Shuffler sux more than the MWS one, as right now sometimes it was like: OMG MWS Shuffler sux, apprentice pwns. lol this is relatevely (dont know the right spelling) funny. Shocked Razz Confused Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing Cool Laughing
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Tinefol



Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 67

PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Every now and then you draw your opening hand with zero or one off-color land, you mulligan just to open another 1-land hand, you mulligan again into another one-land hand with high mana spells, thinking oh fuck, I better would have kept the first hand.
Chances you lost already. Sometimes it happens twice in a row. Sometimes that one case of wonderful randomization is enough (in case of even match ups). Even more often you keep quite a playable hand of 3 spells/4 lands only to topdeck like 7 more with one irrelevant spell. That sucks even more.
And there's literally nothing to blame on, other than you know that.

While I accept that so called true randomization, it doesn't get less painful to lose to it.
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allstar997



Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The main thing to remember when you get a bad hand is that it doesnt necessarily mean the deck hasnt been randomized properly by the shuffler. In general, it's easy to forget that random encompasses all the possible configurations. If the shuffler is truly random, it's technically possible to shuffle your deck and literally have it in the same order it appears in the deck file.

But, all that aside, the most important thing is to try and take luck out of the question as much as possible. Like others have said, you do this by how you design your deck, your mana base and land count, and also how you mulligan. There are some players that aggressively mulligan because they want a fast start or they want the perfect hand, but I tend to stray from that style. I have read that Kai Budde was known to mulligan conservatively. Keeping hands with 5 lands and 2 spells for instance. This actually makes sense because, even though it may not seem like it, statistically speaking your chances of continuing to draw land are less if you keep a land-heavy hand. So hopefully you'll draw into your action spells.

Anyways, that's my 2 cents. I apologize if I rambled on too long.
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Malhavoc



Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 156
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you say the shuffler is biased, then you don't know the algorithm it uses, or you don't know mathematics. Try reading this:
http://www.mwsgames.com/index.php/MWS_Shuffler

The shuffler of course isn't REALLY random, since nothing in computers can be really random, but, believe it or not, is HIGHLY more random then the real life shuffler. That's the point: the real life shuffling ISN'T random. So, if you are looking for something as close to random as possible, MWS is quite fine, MUCH more than real life. If, however, you are looking for game experiences as close to real life as possible, for testing purposes, then I have to admit that MWS could not be the best option. But that's not saying the shuffler isn't random, it's the exact opposite.
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NahHolmes



Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 738

PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Malhavoc wrote:
If you say the shuffler is biased, then you don't know the algorithm it uses, or you don't know mathematics. Try reading this:
http://www.mwsgames.com/index.php/MWS_Shuffler

The shuffler of course isn't REALLY random, since nothing in computers can be really random, but, believe it or not, is HIGHLY more random then the real life shuffler. That's the point: the real life shuffling ISN'T random. So, if you are looking for something as close to random as possible, MWS is quite fine, MUCH more than real life. If, however, you are looking for game experiences as close to real life as possible, for testing purposes, then I have to admit that MWS could not be the best option. But that's not saying the shuffler isn't random, it's the exact opposite.

If you are at say, a PT you might expect your deck to be highly randomized the way a skilled player will shuffle it. 3 Rifles random pile shuffle then 4 more rifles, that's how I do it. A lot of amateur (read scrub) players don't shuffle properly, be it on purpose or accident. I've seen many players step up to play me with some of that stick a land every 3 cards then rifle twice and pass it to me expecting a cut, only to have me shuffle the crap out of their deck then watch them draw a garbage hand and freak out when there isn't exactly 2-3 lands. Stupid scrubs.
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Conkisstador



Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 543

PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THIS

online you can play a much higher concentration of games. also... mulligans take .4 seconds. do the amth... you see twice the volume of Hands online than irl. random is random. seeing twice as many draws means you'll see the random stacks. it happens. christ.
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Bigshow



Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 1374
Location: Igloo town

PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you can always find a way to work with the randomizer, and make a program that can generate random draws at random with a googleplex probablity
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Hank333



Joined: 23 Oct 2006
Posts: 309
Location: San Antoni

PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If someone mana weaves right in front of you(2 cards 1 land) then presents your deck, you should call a judge, but if you want to screw them, pile shuffle into 3 piles, it will stack all the lands together.

Mana screw happens, STFU... shit...
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yavin1



Joined: 15 Jul 2006
Posts: 143

PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

honestly, the MWS shuffler is really bad. I mean if not for it, i would have been a pro long ago. Mana clumps and floods only happen on MWS, never in real life. I mean its not like the shuffler is completely random like a real game. If you hate the MWS shuffler, manually drag every card and pile shuffle yourself. It will still be the same. If you have these mana incidents and blame luck, ure bad. analyize what you could have done and play better. Its never the MWS shufflers fault, its Magx pure lack of skill and him being a noob.

DEATH TO N00BS
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