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Forums of Magic-League: Free Online Magic: the Gathering Play with Apprentice and Magic Workstation; casual or tournament play.
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CMA-Flippi
Administrator
Joined: 19 Mar 2005
Posts: 449
Location: Weiterstad
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 Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:08 am Post subject: Mono Black Aggro |
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prev. post:
http://www.magic-league.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6148
MBA
14 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Gemstone Mine
4 Dauthi Slayer
4 Pit Keeper
4 Nether Traitor
3 Plague Sliver
3 Sangrophage
3 Liege of the Pit
3 Withered Wretch
2 Twisted Abomination
2 Mirri the Cursed
4 Bad Moon
4 Dash Hopes
3 Phyrexian Totem
Sideboard
4 Mindstab
3 Strangling Soot
3 Sudden Death
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tendrils of Corruption
More aggressive then Boros or the other Aggro decks, but with tendences to Suicide and less tricks. |
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coolcreep
Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 264
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| running 4x dash hopes dashes all hopes you had of winning. Remember how everyone ran browbeat in boros when it was first available, then realized it sucked? That is what is going to happen to dash hopes. Its a bad card, get over it. |
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Zangetszu
Joined: 03 Dec 2004
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| lol i love how my topic gets shut as if to say yours was here first and its not mono black if your splashing for krosan grip and strangling soot sangrophage is awful and i dont care if it wins or w/e i will protest this abomination to the grave for locking my topic when i was asking for advice not for some knob to say whats right and whats wrong |
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SaTiVa
Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 189
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| Have u tried rolling horror at all i mean suspending for 1BBB then getting sumtin like a 3/3 or 4/4 with haste on turn 5 is good especially when he gets biggerafter ur attack.... but u never know may be more like a win more card ... i think he mite be good as a 2 or 3 of... the only other issue i see is the lack of a 1 cc in an aggro deck but there aint much for black in block besided shadow guild mage and janky mindlash sliver |
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CMA-Flippi
Administrator
Joined: 19 Mar 2005
Posts: 449
Location: Weiterstad
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| Onimaru wrote: | | lol i love how my topic gets shut as if to say yours was here first and its not mono black if your splashing for krosan grip and strangling soot sangrophage is awful and i dont care if it wins or w/e i will protest this abomination to the grave for locking my topic when i was asking for advice not for some knob to say whats right and whats wrong |
Sry, I didn't close your thread since i opened a sticky one, i closed it since there has existed another one before. (the on i linked to) |
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dawnyoshi
Joined: 01 Jan 2005
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:01 am Post subject: |
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Dash Hopes seems fine for an aggro deck with heavy black. I don't see why the complaints are here. Either you have a board position and they counter their spell, allowing you to swing for the win, or they lose 5 life for BB, allowing something like a totem or a Mirri to deal the last bits of damage.
It's actually relevant in that it either disrupts the opponent's play in dealing with your board. Of course...you probably roll against red decks, but yeah. Maybe they're better off in the side? |
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Onkel420
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 144
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| The problem with Dash Hopes is that it's only good when you have a board and the opponent doesn't. And sometimes it's not even good then. |
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Kytep
Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| coolcreep wrote: | | running 4x dash hopes dashes all hopes you had of winning. Remember how everyone ran browbeat in boros when it was first available, then realized it sucked? That is what is going to happen to dash hopes. Its a bad card, get over it. |
Dash Hopes is totally different than Browbeat. Browbeat's main problem is that only one of its effects helps the aggro game (burn for 5), meaning against smart opponents, it slows down an aggro deck by turning Browbeat into a 3-CC sorcery to draw 3 cards, which only helps the aggro deck in the longer game, which aggro decks are generally not well equipped to win. On the other hand, Dash Hopes could fit well in an aggro deck - provided it can keep BB open for the instant while still applying pressure. If the aggro deck must keep BB open to the detriment of its pressure (e.g., if it misses creature drops to keep BB open, and it has nothing else to do with the BB each turn), then Dash Hopes will get in the way rather than help.
However, if the aggro player can effectively use the BB at instant speed to continue to apply pressure (e.g., if it can use the BB to help cast Char at the end of the opponent's turn if Dash Hopes turns out to not be needed), then Dash Hopes can fit very well in an aggro deck, since both of its effects can improve the short-term aggro game: Counter a critical spell (e.g., Wrath) or hit for 5 more.
In the deck posted, it looks like Dash Hopes is the only instant, which means Dash Hopes will almost always be a dead card (don't leave BB open since you keep casting creatures) or a detriment (leave BB open at the expense of casting creatures). Further, Black in general doesn't seem to have much in the way of instant-speed aggro pressure, suggesting Dash Hopes would probably at best be put into a multi-colored aggro deck (almost certainly Red, to use the BB to cast the aforementioned Char, or Flames, etc.). Even there, it's probably iffy at best, particulary due to its double-colored cost.
So, at this time, Dash Hopes seems to not be a very good aggro card (or control card, for that matter, since the opponent can then afford the 5 life), but that's just because Black doesn't have much it can do in terms of instant-speed pressure for BB. But if such cards rotate in, Dash Hopes could be good after all. This is very different from Browbeat, which will always be bad in aggro (until they come out with EXTREMELY cheap burn/creatures, like zero or 1-cc Chars or Hill Giants, which I very much doubt)
Kytep |
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Ashmatan
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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I know it sounds silly, but how about basal sliver?
You can tap out if need be to lay a big threat and still have your BB open in the form of the sliver for Dash Hopes. Also, because it IS block, what's wrong with Temporal Extortion? In mono-black, BBBB isn't that hard to come by, I heard. An extra turn or half your life? That means Dash Hopes gets lethal a lot quicker. IDK, just some thoughts. |
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Kytep
Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Ashmatan wrote: | | Also, because it IS block, what's wrong with Temporal Extortion? In mono-black, BBBB isn't that hard to come by, I heard. An extra turn or half your life? |
I think this one is more difficult than Dash Hopes, but it's still an uphill climb for Temporal Extortion. On the one hand, it is probably likely that either choice will produce similar results for your opponent - e.g., if they're at 8 life, and you can swing for 4 on your "extra" turn, then either choice costs them 4 life.
On the other hand, the larger question seems to be: Is it worth 4 mana? On the surface, we can see that in the scenario above, we spent 4 mana to hit the opponent for 4. Not so good. I think a good deal starts when you get into 6 or more damage for 4 mana. Or, if this cost 2 or even 3 mana, 4 damage would be good.
Getting a bit more abstract, we can surmise that in an aggro deck, 4 mana likely means you are tapping out, which means you're not playing another two creatures (or Plague Sliver, or whatever other threat(s) you could have played instead). You change that turn from one in which you get to attack and use mana, into one in which you only get to attack. So, essentially, it's pretty much a Relentless Assault that cantrips (you still get the additional draw phase) - and that's IF the opponent is not low enough on life to choose the half-life option.
My conclusion: At this point and in this environment, I think Temporal Extortion is probably not worth it. However, I'm not as convinced about this conclusion as I am about Dash Hopes, and I'd like to see Extortion playtested before throwing the idea out, since it could provide a decent burn-type effect, which Black aggro may need.
Kytep |
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Zangetszu
Joined: 03 Dec 2004
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:58 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Sry, I didn't close your thread since i opened a sticky one, i closed it since there has existed another one before. (the on i linked to) |
ermmm the one linked to is my thread lol |
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Darkfox
Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:12 pm Post subject: Viable? |
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I hear alot of arguments against MBA due to 'lack of card advantage' but I like the amount of answers it has while still playing as an aggro deck. (Read: Faceless Butcher, Midnight Charm, Sudden Death, Phyrexian Totem [anti-damnation/sulfurous blast]) This is my current list, which caters to my playstyle a bit more than Flippy's OP.
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
18 [TSP] Swamp (3)
2 [TSB] Desert
// Creatures
3 [TSP] Nether Traitor
3 [TSP] Plague Sliver
4 [TSP] Sangrophage
4 [TSB] Dauthi Slayer
4 [TSB] Faceless Butcher
// Spells
3 [TSP] Phyrexian Totem
4 [TSP] Smallpox
4 [TSB] Stupor
4 [TSP] Sudden Death
4 [TSB] Bad Moon
3 [PLC] Midnight Charm
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [PLC] Imp's Mischief
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [PLC] Dunerider Outlaw
SB: 2 [TSB] Withered Wretch
SB: 3 [TSP] Venser's Sliver
I'll admit, the Venser's Sliver is a bonehead move in the SB...its pretty much just a placeholder until I see what's available in FS. Same with the Stupors. The venser's are only in there because everybody loves Whirling Dervish in my local meta (which has been playtesting TBC alot lately due to GP - Montreal coming up) |
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KeySam
Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 491
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Temporal extortion is a great card for mono black aggro(even if i would dip into red). I mean if you have it on turn 4 you always get the turn, which is realy amazing. Just an example for an good start. Turn 1 mindlash sliver/Shadow guildmage turn two Sangrophage swing for 1. Turn 3 dauthi slaver(or some other creatures) swing for 4(hes at 15). Turn 4 before attack temporal(so take 8 damage or give me another turn, which brings you no matter what he does into burn range(with a red dip). This is just to amazing to not play it. And ofcourse you want them on main hand so play 4. Of course if they wrath it isnt that hot, but you will still be able to deal some damage(always remind that helps getting into burn range) or just "cycle" through it.(and remember its rounded up so 1 life and you get the free cycle wich is not great but ok). |
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