Which Ritual Desire deck is better?

jmanh2ko · Joined: 02 Jul 2006 Posts: 53

4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Ritual
2 Channel the Suns
4 Chromatic Star
4 Chrome Mox
4 Darkwater Egg
2 Duress
2 Infernal Tutor
4 Lotus Bloom
3 Mind's Desire
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
3 Sins of the Past
1 Tendrils of Agony

3 Gemstone Mine
4 Geothermal Crevice
4 Sulfur Vent
4 Tinder Farm

Played by PTQ player in Minneapolis

4 Geothermal Crevice
4 Ancient Spring
4 Sulfur Vent
3 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Swamp
21 land

4 Cabal Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Burning Wish
3 Mind's Desire
3 Sins of the Past
3 Duress
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Careful Study
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Chromatic Star

Played by Jelger Wiegersma at Worlds

So here's by question, which list is better? In the article the Ptq guy wrote he stated he played against the "old and vastly inferior careful study/ top TEPS deck". However, Jelger went 5-1 AT WORLDS which is not a PTQ in Minneapolis that had a deck with hill giant and tanglebloom in it. I am playing Jelger's version in the coming up ptq's in kentucky and columbus, and would like to get other peoples opinion. thanks!

thedarkness · Joined: 13 Jul 2006 Posts: 487

I saw this deck in the lists, and I tested it for 2 weeks, trying to see how it was even remotely better than TEPS. It's not. 'nuff said.

The main problem with the deck is that, unlike TEPS, if it doesn't draw its 4/60 top and gets mana flooded, it's shafted 100% of the time.

TEPS runs 15 lands and 4 moxes, which are also free fuel for the storm count. Now, the difference here is this:

TEPS and Top TEPS both get mana flooded. This means spells for TEPS and lands for Top TEPS. If the Top TEPS deck rips a Mind's Desire off the top, IT IS NOT GUARANTEED A WIN. This is not the case for TEPS. The real difference is in the spell density. There are some 10 more spells in your average TEPS deck than there are in any of the variants, so the quest is really this. Would you rather consistently draw spells and have just enough mana to play them, or draw lands and have an excess of mana once you accumulate the cards for a win?

AND THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THE WHOLE ARGUMENT:

Null Profusion. It's in color, it synergizes with Mind's Desire, and it VERY consistently ends the game it resolves in. Better in a deck with more spells than lands, yes?

Anyway, the deck the won Worlds had a lucksack of a player, and he even publicly admitted as much. Don't assume a deck is good just because it did well at Worlds. His Dragonstorm deck wasn't even that good. :\

Taoofss · Joined: 22 Dec 2004 Posts: 308

jmanh2ko · Joined: 02 Jul 2006 Posts: 53

but heres the thing, i ran into situation where i was very happy to draw more land becuase of threshold, also, top can up the storm count buy drawing a card with it, then drawing it with chromatic star and replaying it. i see your points with with mana flood, but personally i like having the extra land instead of chrome mox, because you lose cards with mox and if your using it more mana it gets artifact hateded.

....plus i already bought all the cards for jelger's deck....cough

EDIT: Here are the sideboards along with the board im going to play

Jelger
4 Defense Grid
1 Shattering Spree
1 Channel the Suns
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Sins of the Past
1 Mind's Desire
1 Duress
1 Pyroclasm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Hull Breach

PTQ guy
1 Channel the Suns
2 Duress
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Hull Breach
1 Mind's Desire
4 Orim's Chant
1 Pyroclasm
1 Sins of the Past
2 Tendrils of Agony

Me!
2x Chain of Vapor
4x Defense Grid
1x Hull Breach
1x Pyroclasm
2x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Mind's Desire
1x Sins of the Past
1x Overmaster (best card ever)
1x Duress

patrickws · Joined: 02 Apr 2005 Posts: 4

patrickws · Joined: 02 Apr 2005 Posts: 4

test 2. sry

patrickws · Joined: 02 Apr 2005 Posts: 4

I tested TEPS ad naseum for nearly a month. It's funny, but elements from both versions work better together than alone.

Careful Study: 3 seems to be a better number than 4. They allow you to ditch Lotus Blooms, dig, enable threshold for Cabal Ritual, and set up a nice Sins of the Past.

Lotus Bloom: Allows for totally degenerate turns AND can be used to lull opponents to tap out before the turn when the last counter will be removed.

Top: Fine but not optimal.

Chrome Mox: Almost never get imprinted, and if they don't get imprinted, I don't see how they are better than almost anything else.

Night's Whisper is very helpful. Duress is probably a mainboard requirement these days. Death Wish is tech. If you change the mana base slightly, Black and Blue become easier to get and Chromatic Sphere becomes better than Darkwood Egg. There are a lot of times that you don't have colored mana for Mind's Desire, you MUST win on the spot (because you will mana burn or your Empty the Warrens tokens will be Wrathed next turn); Ignite Memories provides an important class of outs. Finally, Sins of the Past, while useful in going off, is really not very useful in helping to go off.

I have found this list to be a bit more stable and synergesic than the Worlds' lists.

4 Ancient Spring (allows Careful Study)
4 Sulfur Vent (allows Duress)
4 Irrigation Ditch
2 Geothermal Crevice
2 Gemstone Mine (you really only want it the turn you are going off)

3 Mind's Desire
4 Buring Wish
4 Chromatic Star
4 Chromatic Sphere
3 Night's Whisper
1 Sins of the Past
3 Careful Study
4 Lotus Bloom
4 Duress
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
1 Tendrils of Agont
1 Death Wish

Side
1 Mind's Desire
1 Sins of the Past
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ignite Memories
2 Pyroclasm
1 Cleanfall (for Rule of Law / Arcane Lab)
2 Tempest of Light (sided in for the same)
1 Orim's Chant (I only have the one, IRL, and Duress is OK)
3 Tormod's Crypt (Duress has to get sided out vs. Ichorid)
1 Channel the Suns

--Trivial (Patrick, my son, was signed on earlier, and I cannot get his name to go away for some reason)

Taoofss · Joined: 22 Dec 2004 Posts: 308

i find myself sbing in 2 duress in 90 percent of the matches. so the list with 2 duress main and 1 sb seems better to me.

Arathomir · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 231

I do think the Levy or OKC versions are better, though I'm wondering if I should try to still get Darkwater Eggs or go with what the OKC version has (Chromatic Sphere). Both draw you a card, but the Sphere can get red or green and can be cycled without having to sac a land or tap two lands whereas the Egg gets you both blue and black, which is also good.