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Thorns
Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Posts: 807
Location: Rath
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 Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Tinefol wrote: | | ynnus wrote: | Costs may
include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents,
discarding cards, and so on.
g - If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a
chance to play mana abilities (see Rule 411, "Playing Mana Abilities").
Mana abilities must be played before costs are paid.
since sacrificing the chromatic sphere is in the cost, thoughtcast becomes 1U.
i need some clarification on this cuz this is a big change for me. |
Sacrificing chromatic sphere is not in the total cost of Thoughtcast. Total cost is determined as "U" at the time and "fixed in" then you're able to play mana abilities (chromatic sphere's one is mana ability), then you pay the total cost of Thoughtcast (which is still "U" as it been "fixed"). |
You cannot play Thoughcast and then scarifice Sphere to pay for it. |
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Zsoltsy
Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| He is very much allowed to play thoughtcast like that. |
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Taoofss
Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 308
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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Affinity
Affinity is a static ability that functions while the spell is on the stack. “Affinity for [text]” means “This spell costs you {1} less to play for each [text] you control.” The affinity ability reduces only generic mana costs. It doesn’t reduce how much colored mana you have to pay for a spell. It can’t reduce the cost to play a spell to less than 0. See rule 502.31, “Affinity.”
"Static abilities may create one or more continuous effects. Some effects are replacement effects or prevention effects. State-based effects are not created by spells or abilities; they are generated by specific states of the game."
(Spells are put on the stacked and than checked for affinity) |
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Tinefol
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Thorns wrote: |
You cannot play Thoughcast and then scarifice Sphere to pay for it. |
Do you even attempt to read? Rules state that you're perfectly able to do so. Not "play", rather to announce the spell, determine the cost, play mana abilities, pay the cost, then spell is considered to be played.
Last edited by Tinefol on Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:03 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Taoofss
Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 308
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| what the other player did was perfectly legal. |
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ynnus
Joined: 26 Dec 2006
Posts: 70
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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ok so if he cannot play thoughtcast for U then im clear.
can someone post if he can or cannot play thoughtcast for U? |
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Tinefol
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| ynnus wrote: | OK so if he activates sphere first he cant play thoughtcast but if he "announces hes playing thoughtcast then uses th esphere, he can play it.
is tha tright? |
exactly, the second way he's able to play it for "U" |
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niknight
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 144
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, here is how it works:
You announce thoughtcast. When you go to determine how much to pay, you have 4 artifacts on the board, so Thoughtcast is at this point locked in at U. From this point onward, the number of artifacts in play is irrelevant.
Also, during the payment step of announcement you are allowed to play any mana abilities you wish. Since Chromatic Sphere is a mana abilty, you can use it now to produce blue. You can then use that blue to pay for Thoughtcast.
Hence, the play works. Also, with Sphere, if you use it's ability during the announcement/resolution of a spell, the top card of your library is set aside until you finish announcing/resolving the spell/ability. Then you draw the card after that. |
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Thorns
Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Posts: 807
Location: Rath
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| ynnus wrote: | ok so if he cannot play thoughtcast for U then im clear.
can someone post if he can or cannot play thoughtcast for U? |
He can play Thoughcast for U as long as he has 4 or more artifacts in play.
[quote=*Tinefol*]Do you even attempt to read? Rules state that you're perfectly able to do so.[/quote]
I think you need to learn to read. He would have to sacrifice the Sphere for U before casting 'Cast, in which case he would only have 3 artifacts, driving the cost of 'Cast to 1U. |
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ynnus
Joined: 26 Dec 2006
Posts: 70
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| that is so cool. i wish i knew that when i played affinity. i started magic right before mirrodin came out. |
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Tinefol
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Thorns wrote: |
I think you need to learn to read. He would have to sacrifice the Sphere for U before casting 'Cast, in which case he would only have 3 artifacts, driving the cost of 'Cast to 1U. |
Perhaps you'd understand niknight better than me. If you won't, probably nothing would help  |
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GTKID
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 38
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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The problem is most people play spells completely wrong.
The correct way to play a spell is announce the spell, then pay all costs.
You announce thoughtcast, it checks affinity, thoughtcast costs U. You can now sac sphere since it is a mana ability, just like using birds of paradise or a land. The players play was legal. Unlike the other guy I am actually 100% sure this is correct as I have done this play with affinity in sanctioned matches.
To repeat, the play is perfectly legal, stop arguing it. Unless this has been changed since mirrodin days like the madness/land drop rule. |
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TybudX
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | He would have to sacrifice the Sphere for U before casting 'Cast, in which case he would only have 3 artifacts, driving the cost of 'Cast to 1U. |
Here's where I think you are getting things wrong. the '(1), T, Sacrifice Chromatic Sphere: add one mana of any color to your mana pool' portion of Chromatic Sphere does not use the stack. It is a mana ability. The triggered effect, 'Draw a card' does trigger and go on the stack the next time you get priority, in this case, after Thoughtcast is put on the stack.
And yes, all of this stems from people playing with bad habits. 99% Or more of players tend to tap land and use mana abilities (including things like Moxes and such) *before* announcing a spell... hell, most people don't even consider the fact that they are announcing a spell. They assume that it is getting played, and that is that. This is completely wrong, and anybody who has spent even a small amount of time on MTGO will realize that you can announce your spells before paying any costs.
Announce Thoughtcast. Thoughcast checks for affinity, seeing four artifacts. The cost is determined to be U. From this point on (as has been quoted directly from the comprehensive rules book... sheesh), *nothing* will alter the mana cost of Thoughtcast.
Pay for thoughtcast. Any mana ability can be used to pay that one U. Most often, this is tapping a land that produces U mana, however, if you cannot use Chromatic Sphere at this point to satisfy the U cost of Thoughtcast, then you cannot tap an Island for the same reason. They are both mana abilities. Decide right here and now if you want to be wrong for the rest of your life, because if you continue to say that Chromatic Sphere can't be used at this time, then WotC is completely wrong, and MTGO is fubar. Also, it would turn out that the lvl5 judges from Starcity, mtg.com, and Canada's own Jason Ness are morons, and should just defer to you. All three bodies have ruled in my favour on this, the latter of which during the finals match of a PTQ.
Put Thoughtcast on the stack. Put trigger from Chromatic Sphere on the stack. At this point, unless the trigger is Stifled or somesuch, you draw a card. Next, if Thoughtcast hasn't been countered, you draw two cards.
Really, it's not that hard. And yes, I've had this ruled on in a real tournement, followed by me using the 'Ask the Judge' features of two websites retaining lvl4 and higher judges. So, if you insist on saying Thoughcast should have cost 1U, how about take it up with one of those sites, and post the reply here. |
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nasa
Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Posts: 179
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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cookie cutter=splatt
quit wasting time. |
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Thorns
Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Posts: 807
Location: Rath
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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Alright then, thanks. I learned something new today  |
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