GRu Zoo/Threshold amalgam

JonPatton · Joined: 11 Dec 2005 Posts: 157

This is long. The deck list is close to the top. If you're good at assessing decks and don't need explanations, feel free to skip much of the post.

Matchups are way at the bottom.

I mined some deck archives and didn't find a build too close to this. Part of this comes from a Starcitygames.com discussion about Zoo, where someone suggested a Threshold creature base -- without suggesting any of the other Threshold elements.

The decklist will follow, with analysis and some matchups after that.

When you should play this deck:
1) You like threshold, but your metagame is full of Goblins. This deck has an outstanding game against the little green men. Seriously, it does.
2) You expect a lot of randomness, and want a deck with light control variants and a fast clock.
3) You like turning men sideways and burning people while still having the ability to occationally say "no".
4) You are generally a fan of old-style Zoo, which this deck closely resembles.

When you should not play this deck:
1) Your metagame is chock-full of Rock variants. You need pithing needles to stop the Deed. Deed is the card that made me stop running Zoo years ago, and this deck is just more vulerable to Rock than Goblins is (no haste).
2) You expect a lot of Iggy and really, really need the Meddling Mages. Sollidarity is much more easily solved post side board with red in the deck than black is. Burn helps against Iggy, but only if you live long enough, and then it's still a strech.

GR-zU, or Welcome to the Monkey House (appologies to Mr. Vonnegut)
Lands (20)
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Island

Creatures:
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Werebear
4 Kird Ape
3 Wild Mongrel
4 Basking Rootwalla

Instants
4 Force of Will
2 Daze*
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Incinerate*
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note

Proposed Sideboard (options follow)
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pithing Needle
3 Stifle
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Tormod's Crypt

Some of the more ancient builds of Zoo ran Arcane Denial when that card first came out. (Older variants ran maindeck REB). A few later versions started running FoW also. I used to dislike threshold, until I realized that basically, the deck is Zoo, with a much lighter threat density. Zoo, is, then traditionally an aggro-control deck, much like the best verions of sligh. Most more modern builds look like R/G/x suicide, which I feel takes away from the deck's history as a utility-focused, versatile deck.

Card Choice Analysis:

The Mana Base
I get nervous playing so few lands, so I went up to 20. I tested 2 games at 18 and, though I wasn't mana screwed, I found that I had used my cards less efficiently as I could have by missing land drops and needing to use my Brainstorms early instead of as a refill engine. This base also doesn't fold to a pair of Pithing Needles and a few Wastelands. I played against a land destruction deck. I was okay because I run four or so more lands than standard Thresh, and I was more likely to get a critter down early. If you are Braver than I am, cut a Volcanic Island for another Werebear.

The creature base:
The creature base is the primary reason this deck is better agaisnt Goblins than standard thresh. Every creature in this deck kills a Goblin and lives, if you need it to. This deck can almost flat-out race Goblins, too (it's about 1 turn slower than the nuts draw). The only creature that gives you fits is Grunt; STP is the main advantage UGw Thresh has. The good news is, your removal is never dead. This has been an age-old debate, and really it comes down to a metagame Gambit and your general fear of Giant Creatures. It's important to note, however, that you can beat Grunt in a way standard Threshold cannot: don't fill up your graveyard. A Mongrel and a Rootwalla can take down a Grunt, and you can save both if you need to. You don't have to be overly protective of your creatures anymore. Just don't let it lead to sloppy play.

You could, if you wanted to, drop one of the Rootwallas for the fourth Werebear. Roots are the most flexible choice, but despite one opponent's contention that they are "bad" (even though it's the reason I beat his Goblin deck), that they can function as a combat trick makes their inclusion worth it. They can also, on the play, block and kill a Lackey even if your opponent has an Incinerator. It's a good use of two mana when you don't want to overextend, too; and since your counterspells are free, it doesn't really matter if you tap out (although then you can't represent burn).

Kird Apes are just good, as they've always been. They're your best turn-one play; they, too, block and kill a Lackey without dying to Incinerator, they live past the Aeon Red Appocalyse's Pyroclasms earlier without needing Threshold. To me, they're a better reason to run red than the burn suite. They've even found a home in Extended Boros.

Mongrels: You won't be discarding much to them, but that they CAN get big means they're simply a better two-drop than anything else this color combination had to offer.

The Thresh creatures: Mongoose is the best one-drop in the game when you get to threshold. Typically he gets his +2+2 on turn three (if you have a mental note) or turn four (if you have a Brainstorm or burn), and against a gold-fish deck (like Solidarity), that's soon enough. I have yet to use Werebear for his mana. As I said, a single Rootwalla can be swapped for the fourth one, as the mana cost doesn't matter as much. I simply prefer the tricksiness of Roots over the sheer power of the Bear. If you aren't me, in fact, you will will probably want to do that, because you prefer to win fastah and not be tricksy.

The instants:
Conventional wisdom says that the Scry on Magma Jet is far, far more important than the extra point of damage you'll get out of Incinerate. I completely agree . . . except that three games I won a turn faster simply because the burn was going to the face and not the creatures. Here's my reasoning: in legacy, people typically don't want to block. Thresh can protect it's creatures from dying by simply not having them get into combat with another creature.

Yes, Scry is amazing in beatdown, especially with Mental Note. Yes, it gives you more information, which allows you to play better. Yes, it still kills every Goblin, Mage, and non-thresholded Werebear. Just be aware that a small percentage of the time, you will be one damage short. It's also worth nothing that it kills a Sea Drake, I suppose.

Eight Cantrips. Thresh runs a lot of cantrips, whose sole purpose in the deck is to guarantee it gets to threshold so that its creatures are more threatening. That's fine. The deck can find a minimal number of answers in a short time, and it has a great control matchup too boot. Just don't expect to be able to play one threat with this deck and cantrip your way to victory. Mental Note is a good enabler that gets rid of useless cards in conjunction with Brainstorm. Against decks like Goblins, where you don't need a counterspell beyond a random daze in the first couple of turns if you don't have burn, you can put Force of Wills on top and get rid of them permanently instead of shuffling them away and possibly drawing them again. Just don't try to play these as draw spells. They're utility that happens to be the right color to throw to a FoW.

Six Counters: Force of Will is pretty much for emergencies. I don't believe any deck in legacy is competative without solid disruption in the form of FoW or Duress + Therapy is viable if it can't win by turn three on a goldfish. The counterspells took up less space than the discard suite, and blue gave me Brainstorm and Mental Note, so FoW and Daze won out. If you prefer more counter magic, you can drop an incinerate for a Daze, but that weakens your Goblin matchup significantly for a minimal gain against Solidarity and Iggy. Iggy's going to duress you anyway, you might as well get used to the idea that you aren't keeping your Counterspells. The extra daze would be an additional blue spell, however, and running only 10 (non-Fow) blue spells is cutting it extremely close. In my testing, however, I could always cast a FoW within my first two turns, and only one game did I need to cast it twice. Therefore, what looks bad on paper tested acceptibly.

Testing:
Matchups:
R/W Goblins: I keep a hand with a Brainstorm, FoW and a fetch, with an Ape and a Mongoose, so it's acceptable even though I don't know he's goblins yet. I drop my fetch, and he plays lackey. I fetch a Volcanic, Brainstorm into a daze, and Daze the Lackey. It took me all of twenty seconds and said "That was delayed". Next turn I drop an Ape, and he Swords to Plowshares it on his next turn and plays the Little Mana Producer that could. I didn't see any other combo peices during the match, but it's possible he was playing with Warrens. I drop a Mongoose off my Tropical, and play Mental Note, at which point he says "Oooh, you're Threshold." I told him I was testing a Zooish list, but I think he put himself into "I have a buy against Thresh" mode. Over the next couple of turns, I drop three more creatures, including a Mongrel, and he ends up, on his fourth turn, using a lotus petal to drop a Warchief (which I burn and he informs me I don't have priority, okay, fine) he drops a Piledriver that lives and I burn the Warchief anyway; then he drops a fanatic, I attack him down to 4 (he doesn't want to block because it would lower his creature count for Piledriver), next turn he drops a Matron, Warchief and a second Piledriver off a Lotus Petal. So I lost, right? Nope: out comes an instant-speed Root to block. He says "Random", and sideboarded so fast I wasn't sure if he was aware that he'd lost. The second game was much of the same, except he lived long enough to cast a Ringleader that got him three creatures he didn't live long enough to cast. He twice used Matrons to search for another matron, just to guarantee blockers.
2-0
I don't think he played badly. I wouldn't have blocked when he didn't, but his creatures were at a disadvantage, and the burn was outstanding. But the games weren't really close, either. Both games I ended with three or more cards in my hand, and the second game I didn't even use two of the burn spells I'd drawn. Based on my previous testing with standard Thresh against Gobbos, this is promising.

Also, this was not an enjoyable matchup. My opponent was rude, calling the deck "bad" even though he lost two straight. Seriously, folks, have some class, even if you aren't face to face with your opponent.

After that matchup, I built a SB geared mostly toward beating Combo, the mirror, and Random control.

Solidarity: The first game, I get him to 6 by turn 5, and then make the mistake of trying to burn him out. With a bolt and an incinerate on the stack, he goes off and has just enough storm (thanks to my burn) to kill me in response, although he does have to Stroke me since he couldn't wait. His hand was probably good enough, however, to kill me on his next turn, so I don't really know how much of a mistake this was. Either way, I would have been better killing him in response to his going off.
I side in the Blasts and the Stifles, of course. I keep a hand with an ape, a Taiga, a Force, and 2 (!) REB. I drop the Kird Ape. 18, 16, Goose, 11, 8, . . . 0. I drew another Blast before the end and a Daze.
Game three, I got him down to 2. Again, I made a mistake here, assuming that he would only have two counterspells (one of which would be a Force of Will), when instead he had *three* remands (as he told me later). As such, I put two into my rootwalla and left only one red untapped (which would have been sufficient with my REB, and Force). It was really dumb, since I could have represented Stifle, too. He cast high tide, and I Blasted it; he remanded the Tide, Tide again, and I Forced. He remanded his Tide again, cast it again, cast Reset, Cunning Wish, Reset, Brain Freeze (he said he'd drawn it off the first Remand), Remanded the Freeze, and Cast it again. That's a score of Storm copies for those of you keeping score. He passed the turn.

This was frustrating, as I felt I could have won this matchup if I'd tapped my mana better. However, it's also only a single matchup, and not much can be gleaned from close games. I don't play much against Solidarity, though (they're hard to find online), so it's partly my fault. That said, I don't think the Side can go much more in that direction unless you add 1 Tundra and 1 Plateau and 4 x Meddling Mage to the side. It's conceivable. You don't want to leave in burn anyway, and Mage is way better than Mongrel in that match. I don't want to panic, though, since this might just be a fair match.

I trolled for an Iggy matchup and got it.
My experience with Iggy has either been extremely favorable (EBA/ERA), or middling (standard Thresh and post-board with my favorite control deck), or terrible (Gobs and Fairy stompy, which I thought should have a good matchup).

This matchup is, simply put, very favorable for Iggy. We played three matchups (the games were quick), and I never won a close game. I won 2 out of six, once because he put me on standard thresh and waited an extra turn fearing a Counterspell, and once because I managed to burn him out on turn four after Dazing his Draw 4. He won all the pre-board games. I tried a few different sideboard Strategies. The one I settled on was -4 Mental note -2 Werebear +3 Stifle, +3 Crypt, although at one point Needles came in to hit his fetchlands (on the play). I lost that game by screwing myself out of a mire that I drew as my third land. Both games that I won came down to hitting him with three burn spells in the first three turns so that he didn't have enough life to go off. I never drew a crypt. I imagine that would change the matchup.

Other matchups:
I tested against a Pox deck and won, even though I was convinced it would be a bad matchup. Then I remebered how good burn was against pox, and proceeded to simply burn his face and mulligan into two one drops the second game. He won the second on the back of his Ankhs (so good) and nin-targeted removal. I drew a lot of fetchlands that I couldn't afford to crack. The life totals were close (3rd game I ended at 4), but that was mostly slef-damage. When I won, I won well. When he won, it felt close. Pox is a newly resurfaced deck, though, and if it gets better, it'll be a force to watch.
2-1

Random black deck: His deck wasn't very good, so I won't count this in my analysis. He did play Paralysis, though, which was interesting. But he didn't have any pressure to back up his removal, and his mana was bad.

Survival: He drops a horde of 4/4s and Flamers first game. I love me some survival. He's not playing the B/G version, though, so I know that he isn't bringing in deeds and doesn't have Rec Nightmare. That's bad, as my Pithing Needles come down on his Survival and he isn't drawing that Single Monkey anytime soon, and can't do anything about my counterspells. I burn his birds and ride a pair of Geese with Thresh into his Wall (Incinerating it for good measure), and then Stifle a Wasteland and a Fetchland. He never got up to four mana, and showed me the three Flametongue Kavus in his hand that wouldn't have done him any good. (As a note, it's clumps like that and the REBs earlier that make people question the Apprentice shuffler. I admit it seems bad.)

It's worth noting that I didn't even bring in Crypts for this game. I thought it might be over kill. I imagine that if you really want something on the draw for the third game, you could add them. I took out two Dazes and the Notes for the Stifles and Needles, though, so I don't know where you'll get three more slots.

This deck still needs testing against: White Weenie and Eon variants. The Eon variants seem worrying because of Grunt, but then, a lot of your creatures live past Pyro, and you can kill Confidant much easier than standard Thresh or even Goblins. Affinity is probably not the easier

All in all, I thought the deck performed very well, and it felt like I was playing an old Zoo deck -- but where the creatures cost half as much, and the counterspells are all free.

Also, Serendib Efreet would be pretty good in here, especially if you want to be nostalgic.

Edit:
Pyrostatic Pillar would be good in the board, probably instead of the Crypts.
More Kird Apes (2/3 elveses) would be okay instead of Roots, also. I don't recommend any critters without a toughness of 2 at least, although Fanatics are okay.

Cheers,
Jon

Tesseract · Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 38

Wow...that's way too long to read. Sorry.

Deck looks good though.

JonPatton · Joined: 11 Dec 2005 Posts: 157

True, it is very long. I'd rather have the info there for anyone asking about a particular thing. Most people just look at decklists, anyway, and I'm sorta okay with that, but if anyone HAS a specific question, the post is organized so everyone can find what they need. I'll edit the intro accordingly.

sc4rs · Joined: 23 Mar 2006 Posts: 392

I'm a huge fan of conventional wisdom - Incinerate should either be Magma Jet or Firebolt. Firebolt late game gets you two extra damage and costs 1 less, though at sorcery speed, all your counterspells have alternate CCs anyway.

Also - Brainstorm is an excellent card, but Careful Study gets you to threshold as fast as Mental Note, plus you choose what you keep and can pitch Rootwallas. Not sure what the call would be there.

Daze is uber-tech. I love it.

Great list, well explained, and yeah, playing this deck against the Rock would suck ass.

JonPatton · Joined: 11 Dec 2005 Posts: 157

Sc4rs: Thanks for the suggestions.

Firebolt: I did consider Firebolt. There's one thing to consider, though: Gobs has been siding in Chalice, and Fairy Stompy runs them maindeck. I think it would almost necessitate siding in the Grudges just to make sure that your removal doesn't get entirely shut off.

But yeah, I really need to test the Magma Jets further.

Careful Study: Thanks. I hadn't considered it. I'd like to test it, but there're a couple things to be aware of: It makes your Roots sorcery speed, and if you don't have one, it's negative card advantage. Also, you don't actually get past the two cards you put back with Brainstorm. I think if the deck was a little heavier on GY or Madness abuse (if it was, for instance, like Frog in a Blender-style madness Zoo), then the Study would be my first choice. I won't dismiss it without some testing, though.

As far as replacing Brainstorm, I don't think it would be a good call. Brainstorm's ability to hide spells you need from Duress and its synergy with the fecthes has made it one of the best spells in the game. If I could, I'd run 8 (and no, Portent is not the same thing). Again, though, testing might tell, but I suspect it would be trading consistency for slightly more power. And yeah, I'm putting my foot in my mouth, having advocated Incinerate over Jet on the basis of power.

sc4rs · Joined: 23 Mar 2006 Posts: 392

The only problem I see with that is unless you crank out 2 Mental Notes, you're going to get to threshold a little slowly for the format. While tossing off burn spells/countermagic or pitching to Mongrel will work, it just has always been true that turn 1 Mental Note/Careful Study is really important.

Brainstorm is sick for hiding cards though and/or finding Mental Note...idk what the call is.

And by the way: