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What happens when hippies breed...


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Reply to topic    Magic-League.com Forum Index -> Other - Non-Magic

Do you belive in some kind of a god?
Yes
47%
 47%  [ 16 ]
No
38%
 38%  [ 13 ]
I dunno
14%
 14%  [ 5 ]
Total Votes : 34

Author Message
Colossus



Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 396

PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BattleofWits wrote:
Pyro: "...by being an atheist you deprive yourself of any sort of guideline with which you can compare what you do to established right and wrong".

I don't believe in any God or religion and yet I still have morals and know right from wrong. Just because you don't have faith doesn't mean you are some heathen running around murdering, stealing, and r*ping.


Precisely. I choose not to believe in any religion. But I'm not ignorant of it. The rest of my family are serious catholics, but I just can't bring myself to believe along with them.

And I definitly have morals and standards. Moreso than a lot of people that claim to be religious. I agree that religion is a set of guidelines, but every religion essentially entails the afterlife. In which I'm content to just die and be done with it. I could really care less if I end up in Heaven, or burn in Hell for eternity.

Judging people's intelligence by their religious values is wrong. I honestly think it's the other way around. For what you cannot explain, you look to a god, which you don't understand.

Like death. No one knows, so people look to religion.
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Pyrofire14



Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Colossus & BattleofWits:

I'm not trying to offend anyone, although I can see where some of my remarks may come across as such. After much debate on the matter, this is the conclusion I have arrived at:

Morality, in its conceptual form, is derived from religion. In essence, you cannot judge your actions as having been right or wrong without a standard to compare them to. For example, in Catholicism there is a concept of the perfect, moral man, one that is impossible to achieve. It is set up this way so that when one fails in any of the dimensions of morality, they can know for sure that this is what happened, and can learn not to repeat it. But without such a clear list of what is right and wrong, how can you know which category your actions fall under? You may go through your whole life thinking that some of your actions are righteous and moral, and repeat them time and again, when in fact they are wrong and evil.

To me, the very nature of morality is distinguishing right from wrong, and choosing right. In order to correctly separate right and wrong, you first need to be able to identify which is which. This is where, to me, religion comes in. While I myself have never been religious and am only now starting to truly explore it, this makes perfect sense to me. Even if I choose not to believe in God, the guidelines that the major religions offer provide me with a means to living a good, moral life.

The question I asked myself, and invite you to ask yourselves is:

Without following any sort of established distinction between right and wrong, how do we know what category our actions fall under?

Without any sort of guidelines, we only have our judgment of right and wrong, and if one errs in this, one could live in a state of unawareness regarding one's actions, which is worse than consciously choosing wrong over right, in my opinion. Simply put, I would rather trust the laws of religion accumulated over thousands of years than my own distinction between right and wrong accumulated over 18 years.


Last edited by Pyrofire14 on Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Pyrofire14



Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quiet0Boi wrote:
there are plenty of cultures around the world which have religions and have morals.

your view is one of a western supremest, imho. you are basically dictating that there is only one path to morality, and that is the western way. which is frankly untrue.


I never said that. I simply said that western morality is the one that I adhere to. I said nothing about me being right and you being wrong.

I do, however, believe that there is a universal morality, just that we have not found it yet. Just as Alexander Pope said about Newton:

"Nature and nature's secrets lay hid in the night. God said 'let Newton be!' and all was light."

I believe that there is a single universal morality that we have simply not discovered yet. I'm writing a book about this, but I can synthesize my argument for you. Newton first uncovered the physical laws of our universe, which in turn prompted enlightened philosophers to search for ones that instead of governing the physical realm govern man and man's nature. There were found to be natural rights, and were included in the Declaration of Independence as "self-evident." The next step, in my opinion, is to find the third and last universal law, that of morality. But until we do that, western religion will just have to do for me.

Not to be mean and nasty, but I hate to be misinterpreted. Please read what I write more carefully, because everything I say only regards MYSELF, and no one else. What I choose for my life is what appeals to my logic the most. It does not mean that it is the absolute truth and is what you should adhere to. In posting my opinion, I'm only looking to open it to criticism and make some of you rethink your views. The whole point of debate is to either fill in the holes in your convictions or to be exposed to new ones.
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Stinky



Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 60

PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone who comes to a magic website for valuable input on anything more than magic decks is going to be sorely disappointed.

One thing that I really dislike about the internet is the sheer amount of bullshit. Whenever someone proposes a legitimate question (Is there a god? Do you beleive in __), people always respond not with ideas or argumentation, but with insults and flames. Attacking another poster, or disrespecting their beliefs accomplishes absolutely nothing. Whenever you give equal voice to everyone, people consistently demonstrate why they do not deserve it.

Belief in god is not something that there is a right or wrong answer to, and so one cannot argue that anyone else's beliefs on the subject are stupid or that it merits them to be killed, because no matter how poorly argued, their views are just as valid as yours.

What people do alot of the time is generalize people who believe in god as ignorant, bible toting tools portrayed in the clip available on jesus camp. Just as not every muslim is a terrorist, not every christian is an idiot. But theres always one.

As a previous poster mentioned, the concept of religion is not inherently evil. Virtually every religion (not cult), provides its believers with a solid base of virtues and morals with which they should live their life by. In almost all major religions, the text discourages any sort of violence, infringement on any specific group's rights, or real harm towards one another in general. In the quran, the torah, the bible, almost all buddhist scriptures, the kitabi aq'das, the book of mormon, and many hindu teachings, the main points are about self improvement. The word jihad is primarily meant to be used about the inner struggle within oneself, to conquer the outside influences and live a virtuous life. Religion is a way for people to derive a sense of meaning, a sense of purpose, a pillar of strength and a sort of guiding light within someone's day.

Morality and religion are NOT necessarily related. However, most major religions do provide a basic set of morals and virtues, and lo and behold, many of them are SIMILAR. In this day and age, a universal morality is impossible to place as so many different cultures have influenced today's world. With living conditions so imbalanced it is very difficult to find a universal morality as the circumstances that raise people are so different, so would their morals be. Classifying things as "Western" morality, or "Eastern" philosophy is ultimately counterproductive, because the morality of a large group is largely a result of their culture. Often times the culture is heavily influenced by religion but too often this is not truly the words of the religion but rather, figures of power using religion.

It is when religion is used to control people that many people become deterred to it and call it evil. Throughout history, within every major religion, the people who have risen to power, have at one point or another, used religion to manipulate their subjects. The catholic church edited the original bible many times over, removing problematic scriptures and adding their own ones in so that the people would trust the words of the archbishop and follow what he said more easily. This was especially problematic in ages where most people could not read. The governments coming to power in the middle east misinterpreted the quran's verses on women so that the masses could opress females and keep their power with less threats, treat women as they pleased.

Religion is very useful to the individual person, if they do the research themselves,formulate their own beliefs and use religion as a sort of guideline for how one should live their own life.

It is once people become dependant upon an establishment that religious establishments can control people, brainwash them. When someone derives their sense of purpose, of hapiness, from an institution and not from their own personally formulated beliefs or values, they are much more likely to be manipulated by the establishment that they have become dependant upon.

In a trailer for jesus camp, which can be found on the linked page, a woman says "There are two kinds of people in this world: People who love jesus, and people who don't."
That's one of the most ignorant things anyone can say. One's religious beliefs should NOT isolate someone from someone else. That is the same extremism that was displayed by the terrorists on 9/11. The bad guys very rarely see themselves as the bad guys, but rather polarize the situation and find another group to be the "bad guys". People who do not believe in jesus can be just as kind,fun, and productive as people who do, but polarizing the situation makes people automatically discriminate, to view them as the enemy or inferior. To teach a child this kind of prejudice is one of the most retarded things anyone could ever do, as this child will now grow up with a poor set of world views, due to no fault of their own, and many will not even realize it.

Hippies and Agnostics are not bad people, although alot of the anti-corporate, loose change watching, church demonizing people in this world are really, really stupid.

Any time you generalize people, you are already making assumptions about them before having met them, and no two people are the same. They have a reason for having those beliefs and might fall into some of the stereotypes you place them in, and they might not fall into others. You just don't know. Whenever you generalize a group as ignorant or stupid you are practicing the same kind of discrimination that you are speaking out against. Making a sweeping statement like all hippies deserve to die only makes you look ignorant and gives them more of a reason not to like you. Explain that complaining about corporations and their selfishness while sitting at home all day smoking pot (one of the most selfish things you can do) accomplishes nothing.

Alot of people just love to hear themselves talk about how awesome they are, how right they are and how wrong everyone else is. In reality people know very, very little. We only understand how something like 12 percent of the human brain works. What about the universe. When did it start? And how? And time. What would an existence without time be like? What really happens when we go to sleep? Our mind loses consciousness and we go into another world. Whose to say this world isn't just a product of our own mind, just because it follows a set of rules? And how far does space go? Does it just stretch on forever? Or is there a point where the laws of physics break down, a void? Ultimately, we like to pretend that we understand things because it helps us sleep at night, but we're all just monkeys on a rock next to one of the many stars in the universe.

I need a drink.


Last edited by Stinky on Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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Colossus



Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 396

PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stinky wrote:
I need a drink.


Better make it a double. And a stiff one at that. This arguement is far...far from over.

Yes, I read that whole thing...

To be honest...well, I'm not trying to insult what you wrote, but you sait it your self, most of the people are going to see the length of this, and completely skip it.

Quote:
Anyone who comes to a magic website for valuable input on anything more than magic decks is going to be sorely disappointed.
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NahHolmes



Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 738

PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


For the record this is what happens when hippies breed, and no I didn't read that long post. If I wanted to shape my veiwpoints on religion and gov't on a Magic forum I would have to shoot myself in the head.
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ANEURYSM



Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 63

PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:53 pm    Post subject: Personal Choice Reply with quote

To Believe Or Not Believe In A Higher Being Is A Personal Choice It Is When Its Taken To The Extreme Of Forceing Your Own Beliefs On Others Or Stateing Your Own Belief As The Universal Truth That We Get On Shadier Ground
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Stinky



Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 60

PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TOO MANY CAPSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

IT WOULD BE ARROGANT FOR A HUMAN BEING TO STATE ANYTHING AS A UNIVERSAL TRUTH.

I JUST CALLS EM LIKE I SEE EM.

NO ONE'S VIEWS SHOULD BE PUT UP TO SCRUTINY UNTIL THEY START NEGATIVELY AFFECTING THE PEOPLE AROUND THEM. AS SOON AS THAT HAPPENS, YOU GOTTA START WONDERING WHERE THE PROBLEM LIES.
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Pyrofire14



Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stinky - very quality post, although I still maintain that a universal morality does exist, however I believe it is a paradox because we are not meant to behold it. As you seem like an intellectual fellow, if you would be interested in reading a short 1.5 page essay I wrote on the topic, I would be happy to share it. I've lost a lot of sleep on this topic lately, and talking to someone about it always does help Very Happy

To those talking about people interpreting their version of morality as a universal truth - I hope that isn't aimed at me. Once again, I maintain that a universal morality DOES exist, but we are not aware of it.
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Pyrofire14



Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nephilim207 wrote:


I'm saying is that different people have different moral standards and different ways of interpretting one thing.


Yes, they do, BUT THEY CAN'T ALL BE RIGHT!

Think about it. If there are different interpretations of a truth, only one of them is right. Or perhaps none are right, as no one had yet found the truth. Some examples:

When Sir Isaac Newton discovered the laws that govern the universe, he knew it, as did others. This prompted enlightened philosophers to look for another universal truth - one regarding the nature of man. When Locke found that, the founding fathers included it in the Declaration of Independence, where Thomas Jefferson cited John Locke and argued that his ideas of natural law and natural rights were "self-evident" truths and "inalienable rights."

so obviously there IS one truth, it's just a matter of identifying and accepting it. However, I believe that this might not apply to a universal morality, because then... Well, that's the topic for my book Very Happy but like I said, I wrote a short essay on it just to get it out of my head and let me sleep, so if any of you are interested to read it, I'd be happy to share. As far as my writing goes, it's pretty good, even thought it was written at 2:30 AM Wink
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ShadowS



Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 157

PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I liked that long post Stinky.

I honestly don't think the concepts of morality are overly complicated. We all know that murder is wrong, but do you know why? It is not because it is on a commandment, it is a simple form of logic. Murder is wrong because it is not in your best intrest to be murdered. Thus, if no one murders, society is benefited. Morality is simple logic that governs yours, and societies needs. Most of this is summed up in the golden rule (although I'm not sure which version of the golden rule is the best written.)

Racism, stealing, lieing, any form of act or belief can be broken down into this form of logical thinking, and it requires no religous input.

Also, there is no complete universal morality. This is because everyones needs and desires are not the same. Murder can be fine if the person WANTS to die. How can you say hitting someone is always wrong, and have things like boxing? It's because both people involved are willing. So the right or wrongness of an act is obviously changed individually, so yes, everyone's views can be correct.

The only wrong thing you can do is force your belief of an act onto someone who wishes it not done.
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Kaesh



Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 376

PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't bother to read this topic, but I must say that while this site is extremely idiotic, I'd bang the chick on the right silly. Very Happy
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Custode



Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The site was definitely exaggerated and not really founded.

However, I don't believe in any God and it was my own choice. I went to church for 15 years and even had a year of bible education etc. so I know what I'm talking about. But nor the bible nor any Christian was able to answer the questions that came to my mind yet.

I don't know the meaning of life either, but I do not want to know at all because that's beyond human borders.

So why should some people think they know what truth is? "God spoke to them"?

Whatever, it's everyone's choice to believe or not to believe in God. If you're happy with it and it helps you in your life, feel free to let you be guided.

I was asking myself a lot of questions in the past 5 weeks because in that short time 3 men who were near to me died. But no biblic explanation helped me, and in the end I accepted there was no final answer and my life goes on almost normally now.

Thinking in God is ok but I'm amazed about the corruption and silliness of church (esp. catholics).

About the other aspects I agree with the one who posted before me and Cypher.


Last edited by Custode on Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:05 am; edited 2 times in total
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Pyrofire14



Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just want to clarify - all of you who dislike religion because what has become of it (corruption, etc), you need to realize that all of that is a consequence of what man has made of religion. The crusades, the jihad movement, this fascist Christian camp - these are all misinterpretations of religion by man. What people do to the Bible, or the Torah, or the Quran should not be reflected in the works themselves. Any one of these can offer you a way to judge your actions, but you don't have to adhere to the religions that accompany them. Remember, FIRST came the holy books, THEN followed established religion. And like most of man's products, it got really fucked up with time. I think it's perfectly reasonable to respect one of the books without respecting the established church for it.
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Kaesh



Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 376

PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pyrofire14 wrote:
I just want to clarify - all of you who dislike religion because what has become of it (corruption, etc), you need to realize that all of that is a consequence of what man has made of religion. The crusades, the jihad movement, this fascist Christian camp - these are all misinterpretations of religion by man. What people do to the Bible, or the Torah, or the Quran should not be reflected in the works themselves. Any one of these can offer you a way to judge your actions, but you don't have to adhere to the religions that accompany them. Remember, FIRST came the holy books, THEN followed established religion. And like most of man's products, it got really fucked up with time. I think it's perfectly reasonable to respect one of the books without respecting the established church for it.

Of course you're right in your first two sentences, but I'd still rather leave my afterlife to professionals. Cool
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