Magic-League.com Forum Index Magic-League.com
Forums of Magic-League: Free Online tcg playing; casual or tournament play.
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The change in Flips.


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Magic-League.com Forum Index -> General Magic-League Issues
Author Message
Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
with that last remark you are missing things by a mile. I know hit doesnot hurt when you look at the TEAM RANKINGS, but that is not what I am aiming at. What I am looking at is the fact that people get screwed out of ratings invites and byes, because teammates can preserve eachother's rating


We can preserve each others rating by not playing in the same minis!!!
But that doesn't help the teams by which you just stole a valuable tactic from.
None of this doesn't mean we survive long enough in the minis to even get paired against each other. BUT getting paired against each other is a possibility, and for these unfortunete events, flips just seem more of a better option. Yes it preserves their rating, keyword: preserves. Their not earning the points everyone else did in that round, isn't in the long run that actually hurting their rating? To get a high rating you have to earn it, by allowing players to reasonably preserve their rating it isn't hurting the system, because if they weren't already winning they wouldn't have the high rating in the first place and by preserving it their not earning the points anyone else that stood a chance getting an invite is earning.
Its a no lose situation with only one benefit.

Quote:
Again, I am asking why do people enter a min, or any tournament at all? To play the game, and in doing so you know you can lose or win rating. If you want a team mate to proceed through a tourney and give him the possibility to gain rating, please do, but do it by conceding the match. If you cannot stand a little pain when you are helping a friend, well, then you better play. That is what it is a tourney for.


A tourny is for rating, or at least thats what minis are for. Rating, mostly team rating. By concedeing to a teammate you hurt yourself, and that can
make a rather huge impact on your score just as earning no points can. Only difference is that this hurts worse.
See, the thing is this option was open to everyone. Everyone was using it, making it so where so who actually played and won ere jumping those who didn't. And nobody complained because the option helped them when they got unfavorable pairings.

And all of this is increased by your famed +1700 tournies that insist are scores actually be that high! How can you treat rating as such a precious thing then strip players of fair ways to keep theirs.

Another event that commonly happens in minis, is getting paired V.S. a random rogue player. Hes using some trash that losses alot and you just mulled all three games, his rating is at 1300 somthing cause he doesn't care about it. And worse off you just lost to him creating a huge crator in your rating, and possibly even discluding you from a later on trial. I'm sorry but thats just not fair.
Or how about computer crashes. Somthing IRL never has to deal with and that we do. My computer crashing for 10 or so minutes consititutes me having to take a huge impact on my rating? How is that fair?

Yes, you can argue that you risk these events when entering minis, but I can argue that none of this happens in IRL magic. Your less likely to be called away,. you don't deal with connection issues or computer crashes. And this loophole was a nice (whats the word) "repayment" for having to deal with those issues.

Why should we get all the negitive effects of flips and none of the benefits?

Quote:
It makes it less likely for people that are scared for loss of rating to enter a tourney, but then again, if you are afraid of ratings loss, what is the use of joining a competition if you are afraid of losing?


Because unfortunetly this league likes to disclude players with a lower rating by prejudice. I'm not pulling it out of my ass, by having a poor rating:
-Your less likely to get on a team
-Your discluded from alot of tournies
-And your overall treated worse by the ML community.

I don't blame people for taking the risk, but I do feel sorry for them for choosing online over IRL if their far more likely to lose here then they irl

Quote:
"Conceeding to a teammate so that you can decide who moves on in a tournament" is legal, and it is not ratings fraud.

What is?

"Conceeding to a teammate so that you can decide who moves on in a tournament, while making sure ratings are unnafected" is ratings fraud.

You can still decide who you want in a team to move on, they simply lose or gain a few points. Is that really something to get so worked up over? If so, too bad because thats the way the system does work, and should have always been working.


You tell me to keep an open mind while you shut yours. Thats seems to be a bad policy this league likes to use.

Yes your right...

Quote:
"Conceeding to a teammate so that you can decide who moves on in a tournament, while making sure ratings are unnafected" is ratings fraud.


But its not a good example of ratings fraud and it should be legal being as it hurts noone directly.
If you actually played, you'd know that.

Quote:
as far as "open your mailbox" ..there are currently 0 unread mails in my department, so im sorry but I am up to date on concerns.


probably because every single time theres a problem, despite the nature, your cronies (Yes I did just use that word) direct everything to nico's mailbox. Where their completely ignored. So go open his.

Quote:
Your definition is no different from mine. Fraud is gaining an unfair advantage, and by allowing someone to conceed a match via flips, so that they do not take ratings point drop is giving them an unfair advantage vs. players who lose and do take ratings point drops.


But you never had to give them that advanatage. And those other players are subject to getting flip losses too. Like, I said, its all up to your oppenent.
And how can you commit ratings fraud if the very person it hurts controls it.

Quote:
you are right in that a player is not forced to use Hamachi, however if it is discovered that players are able to connect via appr ot mws (both players) and they chose not too because they are on a team, it becomes my concern. Not yours.


I think nico once said, in an apprentice mini the only program this league will ever force you to use is apprentice. Meaning as long as over half the leagues walled: You can't stop fake connecting or abuse of the flip systems between hamachi user team mates.

Oh and when you directly pass a rule that effects me, my team, my friends, their teams, and the general magic-league population itself for the worst, like you just have. It does concern me.

Quote:
- Luying that you cannot host against your opponent while secretly you have to go or know you will loose against this person.


Can't the person your lying to just say no? I belive they can. Its rating fraud, sure, but its controlled fraud that didn't need fixing.

Quote:
- Team people telling the TC they have flipped because they could not connect. Which is seen as luying to ml officials. Or when the TC does knows and set it flips on person and thus commiting rating fraud himself.


Both rating fraud, The first is the thing I'm arguing to be not bad at all and in fact a harmless useful method.
And the second really has more to do with judge incompetence then rating fraud. Wow, judge incompetence. Why don't you guys focus on that?

Quote:
Rating fraud as you say is to gain advantage. You also say that flipping when you gain nor loose any rating is no advantage. I say that to prevent rating loss is making advantage of the option and thus according to your statement Fraud. Heck flipping to get receive no rating nor loose any while normally you would gain or loose by playing it is getting unfair advantage which is stated to be fraud.


How is it unfair when everyone has the same oppertunity? How is it unfair when people who don't flip and do win actually get the points needed to pass the person who got a flip win?

Now answer me this:
How is it fair that judges can open a mini, lose r1, and instantly make a second mini while a non-judge that losses r1 has to wait.
How is it fair that walled players that can't us hamachi have to suffer flips or that the players that are forced to play them THAT do have hamachi are also forced to flip.

These are issues you should be concerning yourself with. Instead your concerning yourself with an obviously popular tactic that really wasn't unfair

Quote:
As stated before by Nico this league is sportmanship and playing the game. The Rating is only give an indication of how good you are doing against the other people. By flipping on matches which you could normally play just fine you show no sportmanship and cheat on the Rating basically where you would gain nor loose any rating..


you fail to see that the other guy has also failed to earn/lose any points. You know how big the average ego on ML is? It makes Asia look like Japan. These players don't just think they can win, they know they can, so why would one let another have a flip loss and not gain any points? I wouldn't. I guess my point is that its not cheating when your oppenent is the one who decides if you can do it or not.

Quote:
Also I am curious why you keep pushing with this as it is rather useless. We did not just put this rule in effect because of way teams are using it. Which is the idea I get from you... Also if you say this rule will have no effect nor solve anything then are you keep pushing this? The reasons are unclear to me in this rampage of yours.


I won't stand it because I've been trying to help the average player here for around a year now(the first year I was too busy flaming the average player).
And I fail everytime because one of you decides that it isn't good enough.
And here you pass a completely pointless rule that hurts more then does good then claim your active and are doing somthing!? Bullshit. I'm not letting it go. You shouldn't have passed this rule period. Instead of this pass somthing useful like eliminate flips all together.
Back to top
Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr_Moo wrote:
Now, I haven't played much at all in this league in a long time and I've never known a whole lot about computers (so the following is probably ridiculous), but couldn't everyone just download Hamachi and be able to play no matter what? Couldn't the league just say "Be able to host, have Hamachi, or be willing to concede in minis to people who can't host."? I guess I just don't understand why flipping is still necessary. I'm sure there's a good reason for it. I just don't know what it is.


This is a very popular opinion of what actually should happen. I used to hate this but now am totally for it. Why do we still flip? If you can't host and can't use hamachi, WTF are you entering an appr mini?
If your computer crashes in the middle of a game, what happens? Game loss.
You have to take responsibility for your crapping machine there, so why shouldn't you here too?
The new rule should be: if you can't host in any form possible...And you enter an apprentice tourny and get paired against someone who has hamachi or MWS or someway to host that you can't use, you must concede in flip loss.

Now thats a good rule. And it eliminates all the flips abuse.
Back to top
Neo



Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Craze"]


Quote:
We can preserve each others rating by not playing in the same minis!!!
But that doesn't help the teams by which you just stole a valuable tactic from.

1) Then just don't play in the same Mini's. No one said you had too. that was a completely useless point.
2) Stole a valuable tactic? In otherwords "Pointed out that their methods were not fair, and took a stand against it."


Quote:
And all of this is increased by your famed +1700 tournies that insist are scores actually be that high! How can you treat rating as such a precious thing then strip players of fair ways to keep theirs.

1) Surprise! Players aren't being stripped of a fair way to keep rating, but rather players are being forced to actually earn and lose their rating, instead of just manipulating the system as was done in the past.


Quote:
Another event that commonly happens in minis, is getting paired V.S. a random rogue player. Hes using some trash that losses alot and you just mulled all three games, his rating is at 1300 somthing cause he doesn't care about it. And worse off you just lost to him creating a huge crator in your rating, and possibly even discluding you from a later on trial. I'm sorry but thats just not fair.

1) Like it or not, shit happens. You lost.


Quote:
Why should we get all the negitive effects of flips and none of the benefits?

You aren't gaining any negative effects. Those of you who were abusing teh flips system are simply now going to have action taken against you for doing it, and this was a way of warning you of what would happen. It has always been wrong to use the flips the way you speak of. So in that sense, you aren't gaining or loosing anything.


Quote:
Because unfortunetly this league likes to disclude players with a lower rating by prejudice. I'm not pulling it out of my ass, by having a poor rating:
-Your less likely to get on a team
-Your discluded from alot of tournies
-And your overall treated worse by the ML community.

1) You might be less liekly to get on a team, that is that teams decision. Thats how it is IRL as well, so what?
2) Really? I know there are some 1700+ tournies, but really.. Its not like I've seen more than what.. 4 in a days time?
3) Maybe by people like you, but I tend to treat all players with respect.


Quote:
I don't blame people for taking the risk, but I do feel sorry for them for choosing online over IRL if their far more likely to lose here then they irl

Why are you more likely to lose here? Losing implies losing rating, so please enlighten me?


Quote:
But its not a good example of ratings fraud and it should be legal being as it hurts noone directly.
If you actually played, you'd know that.

Its not a GOOD example of fraud and thus it SHOULD be legal because it does not DIRECTLY hurt anyone?
Cheating on taxes is not a good example of fraud, but its still illegal, despite the fact that it does not directly hurt anyone.


Quote:
probably because every single time theres a problem, despite the nature, your cronies (Yes I did just use that word) direct everything to nico's mailbox. Where their completely ignored. So go open his.

1) You sure like to talk alot of shit about things you dont understand don't you? It so happens that Ratings@Magic-League.com is my personal responsibility, and I do not "direct things" to nico.


Quote:
But you never had to give them that advanatage. And those other players are subject to getting flip losses too. Like, I said, its all up to your oppenent.
And how can you commit ratings fraud if the very person it hurts controls it.

Its not always your opponent it hurts. Someone who is not on a team may have faught hard to earn his 1791 rating, only to miss his invite by 1 point, because your opponent gave you a flip-concession your last game. Sure it did not hurt him, but what about the player who didn't get the flip-conceed when he lost, and missed it by one point? Tough luck for him right? Wrong. He just got screwed.


Quote:
I think nico once said, in an apprentice mini the only program this league will ever force you to use is apprentice. Meaning as long as over half the leagues walled: You can't stop fake connecting or abuse of the flip systems between hamachi user team mates.

I'm saying it now, so listen well. I am the Ratings Manager here at magic-league. If I am investigating an issue and discover that you could have connected but choose not too, then you will be banned for ratings fraud. Dont like it? Dont care? Do what you wan't, I can't catch everyone. But I will still try.


Quote:
- Luying that you cannot host against your opponent while secretly you have to go or know you will loose against this person.
----
Can't the person your lying to just say no? I belive they can. Its rating fraud, sure, but its controlled fraud that didn't need fixing.

So what you are saying is that your opponent says "I can't connect" (which is a lie) ...and you can say "No."? No, you can't. that means the flip system needs better moderation. Hence the situation we have.


Quote:
- Team people telling the TC they have flipped because they could not connect. Which is seen as luying to ml officials. Or when the TC does knows and set it flips on person and thus commiting rating fraud himself.

Quote:
Both rating fraud, The first is the thing I'm arguing to be not bad at all and in fact a harmless useful method.
And the second really has more to do with judge incompetence then rating fraud. Wow, judge incompetence. Why don't you guys focus on that?

You think it is haremless and useful. Fact is, you just refuse to accept the fact that it is harmful, and thusly being put under control.


Quote:
Now answer me this:
How is it fair that judges can open a mini, lose r1, and instantly make a second mini while a non-judge that losses r1 has to wait.
How is it fair that walled players that can't us hamachi have to suffer flips or that the players that are forced to play them THAT do have hamachi are also forced to flip.

1) Judges have earned the right to run a tournament. If they are able to divulge full attention to both tournaments, I do not have a problem with it. that is more of Nico's area than mine anyway.
2) it is not fair, but its what we have to deal with until we switch to full MWS, or find some sure-fire method of connecting. It's not a perfect world, and I never claimed it was. I am simply trying to make it run as flawlessly as possible.


Quote:
I won't stand it because I've been trying to help the average player here for around a year now(the first year I was too busy flaming the average player).
And I fail everytime because one of you decides that it isn't good enough.
And here you pass a completely pointless rule that hurts more then does good then claim your active and are doing somthing!? Bullshit. I'm not letting it go. You shouldn't have passed this rule period. Instead of this pass somthing useful like eliminate flips all together.

You call yourself "trying to help the average player"
I see this more as "Trying to oppose authority"
You aren't needed to help anyone. The league has enough people in positions to do that, and no matter what you think, they are doing a damned good job at it. # of tournaments per day speak for that. # of site hits and users in the chat room speak for that. #'s don't lie.
Back to top
Noremac
Level 2 Judge


Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GG pwnd....
Back to top
Dapug



Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aren't flip wins just like ID's in real life except someone moves on in the tournament because minis can't have draws?
Back to top
sc4rs



Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 859

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craze wrote:
Dr_Moo wrote:
Now, I haven't played much at all in this league in a long time and I've never known a whole lot about computers (so the following is probably ridiculous), but couldn't everyone just download Hamachi and be able to play no matter what? Couldn't the league just say "Be able to host, have Hamachi, or be willing to concede in minis to people who can't host."? I guess I just don't understand why flipping is still necessary. I'm sure there's a good reason for it. I just don't know what it is.


This is a very popular opinion of what actually should happen. I used to hate this but now am totally for it. Why do we still flip? If you can't host and can't use hamachi, WTF are you entering an appr mini?
If your computer crashes in the middle of a game, what happens? Game loss.
You have to take responsibility for your crapping machine there, so why shouldn't you here too?
The new rule should be: if you can't host in any form possible...And you enter an apprentice tourny and get paired against someone who has hamachi or MWS or someway to host that you can't use, you must concede in flip loss.

Now thats a good rule. And it eliminates all the flips abuse.


Didn't I say this in the other thread and you yelled at me because tournaments at home were 'completely different' than magic tournaments IRL?

I totally agree. MWS in MWS tournaments, hamachi in Apprentice tournaments, and if you don't want to, then you concede when you can't connect. Simple as that. Flipping is NOT a fair way to deal with this problem because, as neo and nico have maintained, the point of this league is to play games. Why then have an OFFICIAL policy that even could possibly lead to loopholes and all this mess, when the real problem is people who are too lazy or stupid to go get MWS or Hamachi and yet insist on playing in Magic-League tournaments? MWS is fully functional on my computer, why should I get screwed out of tournaments by flips because someone else is stupid enough to bitch about connecting?

At least this new flips rule gets rid of that in MWS completely - no more not-being-able-to-connect bullshit. Just requiring Hamachi would solve ALL of this.

Craze - all respect returned with interest. I might disagree, but argument is the basis of democracy. Wouldn't be the same without two different sides to the story, and we all have our right to our own opinion. Heck, you've definitely been on here longer than I have, I hadn't even figured out the team rating loophole before you talked about it on here. Razz

And now we're in agreement over the eliminating flips part. Tada.
Back to top
Neo



Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GRAH wrote:
What you guys fail to realize is that eliminating the flip wins WON'T stop the teampair flips--it just randomizes it. There's no reason not to still flip the match so that a teammate still moves on, since we do not currently have the capabilities to see whether or not a person can host. And that was truly the only reason to enforce this amendment.

The ability to flip wins gives players the ability to make more benevolent acts, as was noted, as well.

Plus, frankly, I am the only one who ever idles in #flips. Most judges do not, making it painfully easy to lie.


1) You haven't noticed that I am always idle in there? Yes, and that reason is because I check logs there.

2) Team's can randomly decide or "flip" for it all i care, Just so long as they take the proper ratings point drops, which if everyone in the team is as good as you are saying they are, shouldn't be more than 4-8 points.
Back to top
Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

God, I must of been high when writing that last statement. I'll rectify it with this one...

Quote:
1) Then just don't play in the same Mini's. No one said you had too. that was a completely useless point.
2) Stole a valuable tactic? In otherwords "Pointed out that their methods were not fair, and took a stand against it."


1) Did you not read the bit on why we our in total pressured to have a higher rating in general?
Or how about you missed the fact that their aren't a lot of minis all at once. Mini dryspells(and alot of people can agree with this) Suck soo much. Thats why losing to flips is soo annoying, its not losing, its waiting for the next mini...

2. Took a stand against somthing that no one disliked except maybe Noremac who has yet to take his head out of your ass. Heres where I just don't get it: why do this in the first place, did you just wake up one day take a look at some statistic then without regard to anything randomly fix up this rule? Because its not just me bitching about it, in fact more players are bitching then celebrating, which means you could n't have gotten many complaints about it. So you did you just change it being it wasn't what you wanted?

Quote:
1) Surprise! Players aren't being stripped of a fair way to keep rating, but rather players are being forced to actually earn and lose their rating, instead of just manipulating the system as was done in the past.


You know what else is manipulating the system? Judges entering their own mini. They lose r1, and restart another mini. Often running 2-3 at a time. How fair is that, oh but wait thats somthing that actually could use fixing, so you probably are ignoring it.

Quote:
1) Like it or not, shit happens. You lost.


Yea, I suppose your right, why care about the players or anything. Its not like you play. And so what if a few get pissed by all the random idiots you leave in high positions of the league. Shit happens.
I'm sorry Neo, but how can you seriously say: "oh well shit happens"
My very arguement was to not disregard things, not when YOU CAN FIX IT. Or in this case, just not ruin it.

Quote:
You aren't gaining any negative effects. Those of you who were abusing teh flips system are simply now going to have action taken against you for doing it, and this was a way of warning you of what would happen. It has always been wrong to use the flips the way you speak of. So in that sense, you aren't gaining or loosing anything.


Flips itself is a negitive effect. losing to flips is a negitive effect. Winning in flips is a negitive effect. The only decent thing about it is possibly not losing points when you have to go, but you took that away, thus we lost it.

Quote:
1) You might be less liekly to get on a team, that is that teams decision. Thats how it is IRL as well, so what?
2) Really? I know there are some 1700+ tournies, but really.. Its not like I've seen more than what.. 4 in a days time?
3) Maybe by people like you, but I tend to treat all players with respect.


1. Actually no. Tournies IRL happen maybe weekly, teams are less strict because of this. Tournies here happan hourly, making teams far more jumpy. Don't belive me? Ask the 31 players thats been cut off team -2 in the last 2 months.
2. Thats because outside of T2, not many people +1700 care about other formats. However earlier this year they were far more common.
3. I'm more the guy to get disrespect from my rating. I actually think an online personnal rating is stupid, online magic is far too luck based.
But its fuckin amazing the average player's general difference of tone towards you by your rating.

Quote:
Why are you more likely to lose here? Losing implies losing rating, so please enlighten me?


Online = more luck based.
-See, when you go to states or even some random DCI tourny at FNM you knew about it at least in a weeks advance. You make plans to do it. A mini is random, you join and sometimes random emergencies that wouldn't happen irl happen here. You lose because of this.
-Not to mention we are playing through a machine, machines like to break or screw up when you least want them too. This can lead to your losing.
-MWS has the worst shuffler EVER. This can lead to you losing.
-Flips and connnection issues in general. This can lead to your losing.
-All the trials/minis are single elim
-the time rule sucks

All of these factors are what makes a ML player alot more likely to lose then an irl player.

Quote:
Its not a GOOD example of fraud and thus it SHOULD be legal because it does not DIRECTLY hurt anyone?
Cheating on taxes is not a good example of fraud, but its still illegal, despite the fact that it does not directly hurt anyone.


It hurts the goverment cause your not paying them.
Flip losses really don't hurt anyone, all this stuff about indirectly screwing someone out of an invite in the long run can be said about flips in general.

Quote:
1) You sure like to talk alot of shit about things you dont understand don't you? It so happens that Ratings@Magic-League.com is my personal responsibility, and I do not "direct things" to nico.


Are you your own croney or did you just not read that right. Go ask somebody how many times they've been directed to nico and how many times they've been directed to you. Bet nico wins.

Quote:
Its not always your opponent it hurts. Someone who is not on a team may have faught hard to earn his 1791 rating, only to miss his invite by 1 point, because your opponent gave you a flip-concession your last game. Sure it did not hurt him, but what about the player who didn't get the flip-conceed when he lost, and missed it by one point? Tough luck for him right? Wrong. He just got screwed.


You can say the same thing about someone who flipped because their oppenent couldn't host. I'm gonna follow your example and just say: "Oh well shit happens." Its an indirect effect of flips in general that outside of the banning of flips period, can't be fixed.

Quote:
I'm saying it now, so listen well. I am the Ratings Manager here at magic-league. If I am investigating an issue and discover that you could have connected but choose not too, then you will be banned for ratings fraud. Dont like it? Dont care? Do what you wan't, I can't catch everyone. But I will still try.


nico wrote:
no judge can force you to use hamachi, and thus you are still allowed to have flips if you cannot connect.


http://www.magic-league.com/news/96/hamachi,_firewall_and_router_solution_for_apprentice.html

I'm confused: please enlighten me. On one hand judges can't force us to use hamachi. On the other if we refuse and flip it instead, we'll get in trouble.
Isn't that contradicting? If your gonna force the ones that can use hamachi to use it, then why can't judges make Apprentice MUST HAVE HAMACHI minis.
I'm serious, you wanna do somthing useful: Kill flips in one big sweep.

Quote:
So what you are saying is that your opponent says "I can't connect" (which is a lie) ...and you can say "No."? No, you can't. that means the flip system needs better moderation. Hence the situation we have.


I've had a long god damn day, I misread that. Disregard that particular point.

Quote:
- Luying that you cannot host against your opponent while secretly you have to go or know you will loose against this person.


I disagree with this method. But I belive indie covered it best when he said, its better to just be able to give a flip loss period. Because if you lie and they can't give the flip loss to you, you could have to flip and then win screwing someone out of a round.
Yea, it sucks either way, but its better to procede with no points then to not procede at all, isn't it?

Quote:
You think it is haremless and useful. Fact is, you just refuse to accept the fact that it is harmful, and thusly being put under control.


Its not harmful. Thats what this has been all about since the beginning. This is what it all comes down to in the end. The only thing your rule actually does is stop this. And guess what, its not harmful. You say it can screw someone out of an invite. I say their gonna be screwed by a flip anyway thanks to a bunch of incompetent idiots entering the average appr mini with no way to host.
You say its unsportsmanlike. I say that their are far too many situations where giving a flip loss to someone is useful to totally get rid of it just because you think its unsportsmanlike.

There is no valid reasoning for this rule. Everything else we discuss besides this point right here is useless.

Quote:
1) Judges have earned the right to run a tournament. If they are able to divulge full attention to both tournaments, I do not have a problem with it. that is more of Nico's area than mine anyway.
2) it is not fair, but its what we have to deal with until we switch to full MWS, or find some sure-fire method of connecting. It's not a perfect world, and I never claimed it was. I am simply trying to make it run as flawlessly as possible.


1. Well then I think you've figured out why judges don't care about losing to flips and non-judges do.
2. But your not making it any more flawless. Your not stopping flips, your just stopping a small benefit flips happened to give teams. And sure it wasn't exactly ever approved of, but that didn't make it any less good. You helped nothing here.

Quote:
You call yourself "trying to help the average player"
I see this more as "Trying to oppose authority"
You aren't needed to help anyone. The league has enough people in positions to do that, and no matter what you think, they are doing a damned good job at it. # of tournaments per day speak for that. # of site hits and users in the chat room speak for that. #'s don't lie.


I think Gerrardfo onced used the oppisite to argue against me. A good judge shouldn't based off of the number of minis he runs. While I belive personally a j1 should, your higher judges shouldn't.
Now how about we open a public thread asking for complaints against judges. Bet that fills up fast
No, wait lets make it more specific. Complaints against Gerrardfo. Or Lordhawk(his would eat the sites bandwith). Or how about Noremac.

Outside of hosting a hell lot of minis, not one judge(Gfo aside) does anything good for this league. In fact over the past 2 years, more and more judges have been repeatingly given power despite extreme abuse. Want names? pG, RThomas, GRAH just to name view. Hell pG kbed me despite direct orders from both Wildcard and Lordhawk and after complaining in 3 different emails full of enough logs to make you yourself blush, HE GOT PROMOTED TO OPS..
Now as for Gerrardfo, he does do alot for the league. But he can't do what really needs to be done, only you, nico, lamex, and koen can. And not one of you our. I'm not going against authority.

Its amazing how damn good of a job they do at keep the complaints hidden and the problems alive. Ladies and Gentlemen I belive we've found our problem.
So lets get those threads started, as you said. #'s don't lie.
Back to top
Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neo wrote:
GRAH wrote:
What you guys fail to realize is that eliminating the flip wins WON'T stop the teampair flips--it just randomizes it. There's no reason not to still flip the match so that a teammate still moves on, since we do not currently have the capabilities to see whether or not a person can host. And that was truly the only reason to enforce this amendment.

The ability to flip wins gives players the ability to make more benevolent acts, as was noted, as well.

Plus, frankly, I am the only one who ever idles in #flips. Most judges do not, making it painfully easy to lie.


1) You haven't noticed that I am always idle in there? Yes, and that reason is because I check logs there.

2) Team's can randomly decide or "flip" for it all i care, Just so long as they take the proper ratings point drops, which if everyone in the team is as good as you are saying they are, shouldn't be more than 4-8 points.


Please. You practically hire judges to do your jobs for you. Thats basically Gerrardfo's sole job. Run the basic functions of the league while all the admins are inactive. Nobody will check those logs, they'll be far too big. Not to mention nobody will complain to you about giving someone else the win/loss in flips. So you won't even know where to look.
Back to top
Noremac
Level 2 Judge


Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craze, as I hope everyone is starting to realize there is absolutely no piont in arguing with you over this. You're not going to quit no matter how much logic me, Neo, Nico, or anyone else throws at you. Whenever you start to lose on a point you go back to the old standbys of accusing league admins of neglecting the jobs they do (as volunteer work) or just say the same arguments that have already been discussed over and over.

It seems to me you think the admins are intentionally neglecting issues to cause problems for the league. That is ludicrous. I also wonder what all these problems you claim that are being ignored are? Please bring them to light....

If you hate it so much here and think the leadership is so terrible please do us all a favor and leave.
Back to top
Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Craze, as I hope everyone is starting to realize there is absolutely no piont in arguing with you over this. You're not going to quit no matter how much logic me, Neo, Nico, or anyone else throws at you


Don't you dare put your name in that list. You have yet to name a logical point yet. Or logically respond to one of mine. You actually have degraded yourself resorting to false accusations and slander, sidetracking with grammer, and now just in general trying to convict my name of things you yourself are guilty for.
Hell, I'd drop this issue flat if it meant your dejudging thats how much you are a menace in general. now please just stfu and go do somthing you could be good at. Like Election ads.

Quote:
Whenever you start to lose on a point you go back to the old standbys of accusing league admins of neglecting the jobs they do (as volunteer work) or just say the same arguments that have already been discussed over and over.


I have yet to lose on a point and not totally admit to it. Although I admit one of my responces were rather sloppy from the lack of sleep as of late. As for the accusation of bad admins, well I'm bringing that out now that their finally listening. It was useless to argue it with you and the 2-3 other craze haters before. But now that actual importent people are listening its time they hear everything. Even if they don't belive me, maybe they'll be more active just to prove me wrong which would be a improvement on an minor scale at least.

Quote:
It seems to me you think the admins are intentionally neglecting issues to cause problems for the league. That is ludicrous. I also wonder what all these problems you claim that are being ignored are? Please bring them to light....


I don't have to. Their sitting in nico's email box. But hear ya go Noremac, now that all the admins are here to make you seem a little less idiotic and your suddenly much braver then before. Let me riddle you with this.

In the last 24 hours I've seen soo many comments on how your a huge hipocrite. People have even went as far as to say in this debate that you yourself practice the technique your soo eagerly willing to kill. So, tell me: Whats a reasonable strategy for stopping someone who isn't doing anything wrong? And I mean walled users who abuse flips. As I've said before nico has forbid any of you judges from forcing hamachi on us. And I'm sure theirs countless teams full of walled hamachi players. So they can legally overflood minis? But players who can host can't? I mean you claim everyone will get caught, but you have yet to tell us how. Most definitly because usually in the overflooding of a mini(when 5 members of a team join the same mini), the tc is one of the team whos flooding it. So here we got tcs not going to help you and you without anything but the rising statistics. Their are too many players and the logs are too big to look at every case thus it doesn't very much seem that you catch them.
No, I don't think you yourself, will even try. I think your just trying to shove your head a little farther up someones ass in order to get that j2 back, heh??
Back to top
hawkeye1542



Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 197

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i didnt want to wade through the morass of arguments so i don't know if anyone else has pointed this out to our oh so self-righteous league officials or not:



you are absolutely correct in stating that in a real life tournament you cannot opt to concede to someone "for free" (not losing rating).

BUT WAIT, THERE's MORE!

can't you intentionally draw to "cheat the system" in real life????

OH, WELL, YEAH....

hmmm, that seems an awful lot like "ratings fraud" where both players collude to "cheat the system".

BUT WE CAN'T HAVE DRAWS ON M-L MINIS BECAUSE THEY'RE SINGLE ELIM!!

good point! that brings up 2 things i'd like to espouse:
1) so if there actually is an accepted dci method irl to essentially lose 0 ratings points (unless there's a huge disparity in rating) then why can't m-l endorse such a method? but a flips win isnt the same as intentionally drawing right? because here we have a winner, right? which brings us to the second point--
2) "flips" seems like the perfectly analagous internet option to intentionally drawing because we have single elim minis.

SINGLE ELIMINATION MINI'S YOU SAY???

that's correct. but wait, isn't the league trying to be more like the dci? isn't that their primary argument behind eliminating the "flips" option? hmmm, i don't recall having ever encountered a dci sanctioned single elimination tournament....

Guess what....the league is never going to be the same as irl. That's fine, we all realize that it cannot be. but this rule actually fails to address any of the online-specific problems, such as team ratings et. al., and actually eliminates the intentional draw analog of flipping. you are actually making online magic less like irl by establishing this rule.

wake up and stop fawning over each other u foolish administrators who decided this was a good rule w/o actually stopping to think!!!
Back to top
sc4rs



Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 859

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with you 100% GTKid.

John Finkel does the same thing every time he goes to a tournament ever. And sometimes he brings Battle of Wits. If he can deal with losing points for no good reason, people on M-L can too.
Back to top
Laplie



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 561

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hawkeye1542 wrote:

you are absolutely correct in stating that in a real life tournament you cannot opt to concede to someone "for free" (not losing rating).

BUT WAIT, THERE's MORE!

can't you intentionally draw to "cheat the system" in real life????


You can ID during the swiss portion, but you can't draw during the Top8 (single elimination portion). During the single elimination portion, you can either drop before a round or concede.

Also, draws IRL (and on M-L) sometimes do affect rating.
Back to top
Craze



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 5676
Location: Indiana, U

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

since 3 arguements were all about one particular instance, I'll just adress Dr Moo to cover them all...

Quote:
Also, I can't even believe that arguement Craze made that was refuted above. It's unfair for someone to lose a match and take a ratings hit? I thought that's how this system worked; You win, you go up. You lose, you go down. If their rating is 1300, you should beat them. If things go catastrophically wrong, then, well, that's Magic for you. You shouldn't be able to concede on flips because things went poorly for you.


IRL magic is not the same as ML magic. Thats the first thing I wanna say. Too many of you put them into one catogory when their not even close. mtg online in general is far more about blind luck then IRL. And THATS WHY we should have that one exception. The problem is their eliminating it to make ML more like DCI and that can't happen period or at least not through the methods their taking. So, yes it was a impractical benefit, but it was a fair benefit that should have not been taken away
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Magic-League.com Forum Index -> General Magic-League Issues All times are GMT - 7 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 2 of 4

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

All content on this page may not be reproduced without consent of Magic-League Directors.
Magic the Gathering is TM and copyright Wizards of the Coast, Inc, a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc. All rights reserved.


About Us | Contact Us | Privacy Policy