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scurvy
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 119
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 Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject: Enduring Ideal and Dovescape |
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Somebody at the prerelease told me about the Saturday School ruling from wizards.com about the interaction between Enduring Ideal's Epic copies and Dovescape, so I checked it out.
His ruling is just plain wrong because Epic copies aren't played (rules 502.44 and 503.10). Dovescape only triggers on played spells, as the Saturday Schooling describes, so I can only guess that John thought the Epic copies were played for some reason.
Previous Saturday School rulings get it correct, like this one about the interaction between Enduring Ideal and Erayo, Soratami Ascendant, so this is likely just an oversight. Still, this is an excellent example of why you should double-check rulings from rules articles, even ones on the WOTC page, if they don't sound right to you; that's why the comp rules are availble to everyone. |
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ant900
Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 2473
Location: somewhere
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| Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| yah just like my judge at the prerelease said that hybrids are only the color that you paid for while on the stack >.> stupid judges... |
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ElvishGod
Joined: 12 May 2005
Posts: 2924
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| Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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Ugh. You guys...
| Quote: | Q: If you have played Enduring Ideal and search up Dovescape, at the beginning your next upkeep when the epic copy goes onto the stack, does the Ideal get countered by the Dovescape and give you seven 1/1 Bird tokens? --Daniel
A: Yes, the epic copy will get played, Dovescape will trigger, and the trigger will counter the copy and give you seven Birds.
*Extra*: The key is if the spell (or copy thereof) is played, or if it is put directly on the stack. Isochron Scepter? Birds for the copy. Urza's Rage? Birds, but the Rage still happens. Obliterate? Birds, and then they all die in the Obliteration. King Cheetah? No Birds - it's still a creature spell no matter when it's played. Storm? Birds for the original spell, copies resolve as normal. Replicate? Same as storm - birds for the first, copies happen as normal. Eye of the Storm? Birds, Birds, Birds! Trigger order will matter for whether the spell is removed by the Eye or countered by the Dovescape though. Mirari? Birds for the original, but the Mirari copy is put right on the stack. Naturalize played with Boseiju mana? Birds, and then probably no more Birds once Naturalize resolves.
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Note the bold. Note the oracle text for Mirari, and the one for Enduring Ideal. Mirari says put it on the stack. Enduring Ideal says copy, simply.
Anyone here know the deck Scepter Chant? How does that work again? Oh yeah, you copy the Orim's Chant, and then pay the kicker. PAY THE KICKER? But you have to play a spell to pay the kicker! Let's look at scepter's text:
COPY THE IMPRINTED INSANT
It simply says copy. Not "put it on the stack".
Hmm... Well if that works... ENDURING IDEAL = BIRD COUNTERS.
I rest my case.
In short: Epic spells aren't played necessarily, but Dovescape still affects them. |
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Quetzilla
Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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a) You're not a judge, so don't post answers as if you are
b) You're wrong. Isochron scepter's FULL TEXT is:
"2, T: You may copy the imprinted instant card. If you do, you may play the copy without paying its mana cost."
Play the copy. That's why you get to pay kicker costs etc. Ideal copies go straight on the stack. End of story. |
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Buffalo_Wing
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 138
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| Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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EG, seriously, don't cop this condescending attitude as if you know what the hell you are talking about.
Edit: Reread the post. It was confrontational and condescending, and you used a horribly flawed example in Scepter.
In addition, the actual judges have pretty much unanimously said that the ruling is wrong and explained their reason logically.
Last edited by Buffalo_Wing on Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ElvishGod
Joined: 12 May 2005
Posts: 2924
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| Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Buffalo_Wing wrote: | | EG, seriously, don't cop this condescending attitude as if you know what the hell you are talking about. |
I know what I'm talking about.
And I'm not condescending! I'm a nice guy, I was just giving what I believe to be true. I never made an insulting comment..... Geez. Don't accuse. If I was patronizing at all, then I apologize.
Anyway, I still think I'm right, though I may be wrong. WotC supports my side.  |
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scurvy
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 119
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| Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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If you follow the links to the comp rules I posted, they'll take you to rules that:
a) define Epic as an effect that copies a spell, and
b) defines "copying a spell" as putting a copy of the spell on the stack.
Quet explained why Scepter is different, and you can see the difference in rule 503.12 which discusses effects that instruct a player to "play a copy" of an object.
As for Mirari, they could update that to read "Copy that spell. You may choose new targets for the copy." and it would be functionally identical. Incidentally, copy effects say "you may choose new targets" because choosing targets is one of the steps taken when playing a spell, and copying a spell without that clause would lock the copy onto the target(s) of the original (502.10).
Hope that helps clear up your objection. I also saw your original post that referred to "idiots" and I think your edit was a well-considered improvement. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Level Four judge John Carter posted this in Saturday school, and I expect M-L judges to uphold his ruling. |
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Anti-Christ
Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 46
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| Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| ElvishGod wrote: | | Buffalo_Wing wrote: | | EG, seriously, don't cop this condescending attitude as if you know what the hell you are talking about. |
I know what I'm talking about.
And I'm not condescending! I'm a nice guy, I was just giving what I believe to be true. I never made an insulting comment..... Geez. Don't accuse. If I was patronizing at all, then I apologize.
Anyway, I still think I'm right, though I may be wrong. WotC supports my side. |
Clearly you do no know what you're talking about.
You dnt play spells, you put them onto the stack.
502.44b - A player can't play spells once a spell with epic he or she controls resolves, but effects (such as the epic ability itself) can still put copies of spells onto the stack. [CompRules 2005/08/01]
So Dovescape prevents the opponent from playing anything of relevance except for creatures and the Ideal can search you Meishin and then proceed to have some fun. |
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ElvishGod
Joined: 12 May 2005
Posts: 2924
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| Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| scurvy wrote: | | Hope that helps clear up your objection. I also saw your original post that referred to "idiots" and I think your edit was a well-considered improvement. |
I actually edited that before anyone replied, because I didn't want to come off as condescending or mean... Heh, I'm too nice for that. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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Carter was quite obviously mistaken, and I think it couldn't be clearer:
502.44b A player can’t play spells once a spell with epic he or she controls resolves, but effects (such as the epic ability itself) can still put copies of spells onto the stack. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Anonymous wrote: | | Level Four judge John Carter posted this in Saturday school, and I expect M-L judges to uphold his ruling. |
John Carter is probably the worst Saturday School J they've had. Unlike Rune Horvlik, he's quite often wrong, so his comments in saturday school must be taken with a grain of salt sometimes. |
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Meldethar
Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 86
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Gotta admit, Carter was wrong on this one. Comprehensive Rules clearly show that Dovescape doesn't touch copies put directly on the stack (aka Epic or Replicate) |
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ElvishGod
Joined: 12 May 2005
Posts: 2924
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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Q: Considering that the epic copy isn't technically played, it doesn't trigger Dovescape. Right? --Wilson L.
A: Yes. Epic copies aren't played - they're put directly on the stack, so they won't trigger Dovescape. Perceptive readers will note that last week the idiot detector failed to go off when I mistakenly said the opposite last week. (Careful editorial scrubbing will take that stain out.)
YAY IM A FUCKTARD AND AN ****!!!
sorry, but at least I admit it |
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Insanity
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 164
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| They've been wrong numerous times there before. |
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