Jitte/Genju./Paladin problems...

Korniswins · Joined: 09 Oct 2005 Posts: 31

I have paladin en-vec with jitte on it, no counters. I attack and my opponent blocks with an activated white genju land. first strike damage resolves and i a put a -1/-1 counter on the land making it a 1/4 so that my paladin will survive.
heres the issue: he activates it again so that he can gain more life and a spectator says if he activates it again it will become a 2/5 again and the -1/-1 will do nothing. I call a judge, the level 1 judge says this works, another level 1 judge says it does not but then agrees after 2 people persuade him. I personally think it should stay 1/4, the -1/-1 is on there till end of turn so if he activates again it becomes a 2/5 with -1/-1, a 1/4. This ended up costing me the game and I was rather pissed at the spectator for saying anything at all, (this was top 4 at FNM).
Thank you for your input, also if you are a judge say what level you are please.

ElvishGod · Joined: 12 May 2005 Posts: 2924

the spectator was right to speak up...

i agree with him. Although, I have been wrong... hah

xmtgjunkiex · Joined: 09 Apr 2005 Posts: 135

im pretty sure it stays a 1/4...

the -1/-1 stays on the creature until end of turn...

reactivating it does make him gain more life but... its a 2/5 creatures with -1/-1 on it till end of turn.. reactivating the ability makes it a 2/5 creature.. but it ALREADY is a creature... so the -1/-1 effect would still be on it and make it be a 1/4 still..

but hell i dont know if im right... just the way i see it

super-gecko · Joined: 25 Feb 2006 Posts: 45

I think u gotta check out how it works with the layers. There are different layers which work in different orders. If u feel like goin to wizards.com, im sure u could dig that up in the comprehensive rules.
I think it goes back to 2/5 again though

Alucart · Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 83

it is correct it becomes a 2/5

this is what happens...

2/5 with spirit link..
-1/-1 becomes a 1/4
activate agian
2/5 With spirit link x 2.. the -1/-1 has ALREADY affected the creature.. it is nto a counter.. and it is not damage so it does not have -1/-1

the spectator is correct to point it out.. IF you did not make a chance to Remove him.. then he has the right to speak of a play.. he is just not allowed to coach, or give information out. there is NOthing wrong with a spectator correcting a game state.. as judges can do that as well otherwise if they couldnt.. judges could not be to correct the game state.

Guest · Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:11 am Post subject:

It is not correct.
If you active jeju it become a 2/5 with "Gain".
If you spend 2 and activate the geju again it become a 2/5 with "gain" and is not important what creture was before
it is only a 2/5 creture with "Gain".
If you gave him -1/-1 genju become 1/4.
Until end of turn or until it is a creture this turn it has -1/-1.
If you activate again genju it doesn't return a land, is a creture that is transformed and until end of turn it has -1/-1.

tcook589 · Joined: 26 Oct 2005 Posts: 45

The Plains would become a 2/5 creature with "whenever this creature deals damage, you gain that that much life" "whenever this creature deals damage, you gain that much life."

The player activates the Genju of the Fields' ability "2: Enchanted Land becomes a 2/5 creature with "whenever this creature deals damage you gain that much life." It's still a land" and the ability resolves

Plains = a 2/5 White Spirit Creature with "whenever this creature deals damage you gain that much life"

You attack with the Paladin en-Vec equiped with a Jitte. First strike damage resolves and now your opponent has a 2/5 with two damage on it.

You activate the ability "target creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn" targetting the White Spirit Creature. The ability resolves giving your opponent a 1/4 with two damage on it.

Before regular combat damage resolves, your opponent activates the ability on Genju of the Fields "2: Enchanted Land becomes a 2/5 creature with "whenever this creature deals damage you gain that much life." It's still a land." When the ability resolves, the aura sets the creature's power and toughness to 2 and 5 respectively (he also gains that handy spirit link ability again).

When regular combat damage resolves, the defending 2/5 White Spirit Creature will deal two damage to the attacking Paladin en-Vec killing the en-Vec and causing two seperate triggers of "whenever this creature deals damage you gain that much life" giving your opponent additional 4 life.

The thing here is that the activated ability from the Jitte does not constantly affect the creature. Cards like Humility and Night of Soul's Betrayal give a continuous effect.

And about the interference issue, the spectator has the right (and in my opinion obligation) to point out when a ruling was made incorrectly. As long as he is not giving information or coaching then there is nothing wrong with what he did - especially if it was correcting something done wrongly.

Shyft- · Joined: 06 Nov 2004 Posts: 100 Location: Your Mom

418.5a The values of an object's characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object, then applying continuous effects in a series of layers in the following order: (1) copy effects (see rule 503, "Copying Objects"); (2) control-changing effects; (3) text-changing effects; (4) type-, subtype-, and supertype-changing effects; (5) all other continuous effects, except those that change power and/or toughness; and (6) power- and/or toughness-changing effects.
Inside each layer from 1 through 5, apply effects from characteristic-setting abilities first, then all other effects. Inside layer 6, apply effects in a series of sublayers in the following order: (6a) effects from characteristic-setting abilities; (6b) all other effects not specifically applied in 6c, 6d, or 6e; (6c) changes from counters; (6d) effects from static abilities that modify power and/or toughness but don't set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value; and (6e) effects that switch a creature's power and toughness. See also the rules for timestamp order and dependency (rules 418.5b-418.5g).

So, what this means is that continuous static effects which add or remove power and toughness are applied in layer 6d, and will still override any characteristic-setting effects. However, the -1/-1 from the Jitte is not a static effect, it's a continuous effect caused by an activated ability, which does not use layers (as it is not a static effect), and CAN be overriden by a characteristic-setting effect applied in layer 6a. In the situation described, the Genju would again be a 2/5 creature, and would have the "gain life equal to the damage dealt" ability TWICE (so the plains would deal two damage, and your opponent would gain 4 life).

Also, regarding the spectator speaking up --- if your opponent had taken the initiative in the first place to activate the Genju again, then he would've had the right to correct the game state, however the in the situation presented, the information given was coaching/unauthorized information. If evidence was clear that the player did not know about this possibility, the judge should have disallowed the action, and rolled the game state back to where the plains was a 1/4 creature. However, if that player would have had knowledge of another legitimate reason to reactivate the Genju (such as the gain life twice trick), then it can be rightly assumed that he would have done so and the game state at that point would have been the actual game state that existed. Pretty much, it would be almost impossible to roll back the UI in this case. Either way, the spectators should be removed at that point and sanctions against the person who provided the UI should be put in place to avoid it happening in future (for instance, advise that a warning is being entered, and that other occurrences even in future events will result in this player receiving further action against him, escalating by the number of times he provides UI during active matches.)

Guest · Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 6:22 am Post subject:

And this is why Jitte should die.

MarkTwainIII · Joined: 19 Dec 2005 Posts: 95

its a 2/5 with ouble instances of spirit link

ElvishGod · Joined: 12 May 2005 Posts: 2924

Guest · Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:19 am Post subject:

Guest · Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 1:12 pm Post subject:

lol
in other words it seems that you scrwed it up alil bit, may be you needed to ask a friend/judge before trying to do somethong and wait if it would happened something, and analyze the game status, if your creature was about to be killed if it stays as a 2/5 you must overpower your creaure.

Guest · Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:36 am Post subject: