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suicide black


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greendragon



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:08 pm    Post subject: suicide black Reply with quote

the black white version has been doing well. i think there may be something to running a monoblack version. basic land alleviates a lot of problems with crucible and wasteland.

ok the deck is heavily metagamed, aggressively so with the 4 main ankh of mishra and withered wretch. the ankhs are insult to injury and exploits the decks fast land destructive ability. in 1.5 everyone run fetchlands which take 4 under ankh. it's mainly for life of the loam and recursive land decks and can be readily boarded out. ankh help win game 1 vs these decks. ankhs also aid if your opponent drops ensnaring bridge which monoblack has not answer to. either way, they have to take damage. anyway, would love some feedback.

suicide black

sideboard

4 contagion
3 pithing needle
2 engineered plague
2 spinning darkness
2 cursed scroll
2 perish

main
12 swamp
4 wasteland
4 chrome mox
4 dark ritual
3 cabal therapy
3 duress
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
4 ankh of mishra
4 dark confidant
4 withered wretch
2 nantuko shade
2 skittering skirge
4 hypnotic specter
2 phyrexian negator

peace.

greendragon
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Vodka_7up



Joined: 06 Oct 2004
Posts: 215

PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

might i suggest droping the negator in the maindeck? isn't there a lot of fish/goblins/burn going around in 1.x right now, Negator looks more like a sidboard card because of that. Also why do you run chrome mox? I think you need everycard you have and can't afford to "throw" one away for a speed boost, you already have dark ritual and low casting cost stuff.

How do carnophage's and sancramony work in 1.x anyways? 1cc 2/2's always seem nice, especially with off a dark ritual. Anyways those are my thoughts.
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Metzel



Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 264
Location: Bob Marley

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

is it me or doesnt 1.x = extended? Last I checked rituals were not legal in extended..or sinkholes.... or cursed scrolls...get my drift?
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Vodka_7up



Joined: 06 Oct 2004
Posts: 215

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:04 pm    Post subject: Drinking a bit? Reply with quote

THis is a 1.5 thread...right?!? 1.5=legacy, 1.x=extended Did you get lost or something on the forum topics or something? Damn legacy and extended for getting ppl mixed up, one my of stupid friends thought when i said lets play a game of 1.x it was legacy, so he had belcher against my extended red deck, not fun.
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yehudi



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

negators should even be in the side there only good vs combodecks and combo isnt even afraid of a 3/4 turn clock that he is
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Hermit_Druid



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 41

PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is hardly Sucide black.

Its BW Confidant with negators
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greendragon



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:19 am    Post subject: current suicide black Reply with quote

well this is not exactly the more popular suicide black, it's more along the lines of hatred. yes, and before you protest and say it's not viable anymore, you must consider the field. check the top 8s and you will see that control is back on the scene and anywhere there is control, this deck is viable i say.

part of the problem of playing hatred is knowing how and when to go for it and what goes in the board and so on. here is the current deck list which has been performing well, though people do make fun of it.

hatred

sideboard
4 engineered plague
3 umezawa's jitte
3 contagion
2 cursed scroll
2 perish
1 spinning darkness

main deck
12 swamp
4 city of traitors
4 wasteland
4 dark ritual
4 duress
4 cabal therapy
4 hatred
4 sarcomancy
4 carnophage
4 dauthi horror
4 dauthi slayer
4 phyrexian negator
4 skittering skirge

first off is the land and i know what you're thinking, only 12 swamps? cut a skirge or a negator. honestly, only 1 in 30 games has it been a problem even vs land destruction. all you need is one swamp in your opening hand to run this deck. one swamp and any other land and your golden. it's an aggressive deck that takes chances and one of those is not drawing too many land.

fetchlands are bad in this deck for two reasons, your life is a resource for killing your opponent with AND stifle is heavily played in the current format. with the current land mix you will often find yourself over 20 life due to swords to plowshares and that is a great thing.

there is not chrome mox because you may need that black card fo flashback cabal therapy.

wasteland is a must play 4 of in this deck. it is effectively disruption and should be viewed as such. good targets are mishra's factory because they block your zombies and of course ancient tombs and such.

city of traitors is very important because it allows you to play very comfortably around daze AND it allows you drop a turn 2 negator if hatred is not a viable win condition due to the circumstances of the game. the deck has 3 win conditions, hatred, negator, and skirge being the last which i will explain. city of traitors is also important for mana when it becomes time to go off for hatred.

everyone is always saying 8-12 discard spells. which is true. in a sense though wastelands due to some extent count as disruption. this deck runs 8 which allow you to see what is in your opponents hand. this is very important. hymn does not let you see. thoughtseize costs life. if you know the cards in the format, cabal therapy is a truly amazing discard spell. i even cast therapy at times BEFORE duress if i think my opponent has multiple chalice of the void which you don't want to resolve. there will be the occassional game where you don't draw discard which can be bad, but usually you can win with another win condition.

24 creatures and i know what you are thinking. why so many? 20 is enough and the double BB makes dauthi slayer and skittering skirge difficult to cast. surprisingly, this is not the case. the thing is skittering skirge usually resolves after they have used removal on your other guys to finish them off. it is also awesome with cabal therapy as you can sac and cast more guys. skirge also has synergy with sarcomancy which you can cast with it in play. so playing 4, they will get used in this deck even if you have multiples, trust me. the 4 negators are a must as well,as they are one of your chief win conditions even more then hatred.

4 hatred mean you are going at times be able to kill them on turn 2 if they lay down something other then an island.

you may be wondering about matchups. and the sideboard.

engineered plague should be obvious. this will win you the goblins matchup, merfolk matchup, the countersliver matchup, the faeries matchup, elves matchup and more. i also bring them in vs life naming cleric.

contagion is important as it is a free spell and you are playing 20 land with only 12 swamps so casting spells for free becomes important as you don't want to tap out for removal. it does not kill things sometimes which can be a problematic so requires some selection.

umezawa's jitte is a game winner plain and simple. this will win you a lot of games vs other creature decks and are braught in vs burn which is not popular right now.

cursed scroll is grat vs pox and any discard deck really. it is another win condition many decks do not ahve an answer for.

perish is for all the survival matchup, blue/green madness, elves, green stompy and any deck running a lot of green creatures. dystopia costs BB and is slow.

spinning darkness is another free spell removal card which gains you life. it may not always be able to kill tarmogoyf but the removal life swing makes it a must play.

also of note is sideboarding. the following decks you don't sideboard anything against.

in matches, the main issue is what to board out. vs many decks in the format, the answer is board nothing a lot of the time. the only decks you board against are other serious creature decks. in these matchups you are siding out hatred and duress primarily and sometimes therapy too. everything else you are just fine pretty much.

there is no graveyard removal because you don't care about what they are setting up in their graveyard usually. it's a slow process. in the th case of dredge return decks side out duress for engineered plagues naming zombies. this may hurt you, but it will stop them from running you over.

dark ritual is a win condition so don't burn it early. hold it back in case you have or can draw hatred. it's much better to just play the saromancy, then the horror instead of using ritual to bring them both out. what this means is if you draw hatred, you will have a missed opportunity.

people believe hatred is bad for the following reasons: swords to plowshares, daze, force of will, chalice of the void and so on, but like any deck, if you pracice you can win. the thing also that makes the deck great is the all out get luck with multiple ritual win condition which will wing you a lot of games outright.
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greendragon



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:27 pm    Post subject: tainted pact Reply with quote

one of the things which killed hatred was the ban of demonic consultation. recently i have been testing all of the black tutors in order to look for some kind of replacement. one card i found with some degree of promise is tainted pact.

for a long time, i had tainted pact main deck and i liked it. of course, the issue becomes not wanting to draw multiples so you need to vary your land in this deck which i'm not sure if that is the way to go.

currently i play:

12 swamp
4 wasteland
4 city of traitors

if i were to include tainted pact, it would be for the sideboard. tainted pact would be brought into speed up the deck vs combo or control or any deck where you don't really need that much or any hand destruction which there are quite a few. the sideboard would become

4 engineered plague
4 tainted pact
3 umezawa's jitte
3 contagion
1 spinning darkness

if you include it in the sideboard you have to make main deck changes to increase the chances of getting the card you need or simply removing crap you don't need whichever the case may be.

the land mix would become something like this:

4 snow-covered swamp
4 swamp
2 bloodstained mire
2 polluted delta
4 wasteland
4 city of traitors

of course, adding pact leaves you a little more vlunerable to stifle. so you have to wait for your opponent to tap blue to safely go and get your swamp. obviously, the snow-covered are added so you would not draw multiple cards named "swamp" and be able to search deeper into your deck.

playing with these changes made tainted pact very useful in the deck. however, tainted pact was not as powerful as the current main deck cards in the deck (other then the land) so i believe it belongs in the sideboard for now. you would bring them in to speed up hatred.
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greendragon



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:43 pm    Post subject: spinning darkness Reply with quote

in testing spinning darkness with 1 in the main deck, it has proven to be an amazing card for several reasons.

first, it lessens the power of lhurgoyf when you are removing cards from your graveyard.

second, it is board advantage in that you not only remove your opponents creature, but you benefit from life game which may enable you to finish them off with hatred.

third, it is in effect a "free" spell. hell, you don't even need land to cast it. just 3 black cards and your golden.

it is hard to justify more then one in the deck however. your graveyard doesn't fill up that fast so even though i would like one more, haven't figured out a way to make that happen.
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greendragon



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:12 am    Post subject: Umezawa's Jitte Reply with quote

recently, i move umezawa's jitte to the main deck. the results have been amazing. easily 10% more wins from that alone. i cut a hatred to so. city of traitors enabled you to equip stuff quickly and with ease.

honestly, i don't think the deck needs removal, but when it does jitte seems to fill in nicely. putting on a shadow creature or skittering skirge is just awesome.

main deck
13 snow-covered swamp
4 city of traitors
4 wasteland
4 dark ritual
4 duress
4 cabal therapy
3 umezawa's jitte
3 hatred
1 spinning darkness
4 sarcomancy
4 carnophage
4 dauthi slayer
4 phyrexian negator
4 skittering skirge

i am very happy with the way the deck plays in the main deck now. i'd like one more hatred main, but i don't need it so far and cabal therapy and skittering skirge are just amazing.

i am switching to snow-covered swamps for a reason.
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greendragon



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:29 am    Post subject: sideboard tech Reply with quote

so recently pikula placed 2nd in a grand prix with a black white deck. i have seen a lot suicide decks run various cards in the sideboard for graveyard destruction, but few ran what pikula chose to run.

people tend to run the following:
planar void
extirpate
faerie macabre
leyline of the void

pikula ran withered wretch

running wretch does several things for me. he’s a zombie so that helps with my sarcomancy and you can hurt your opponent with it. suicide is a beat down deck so he helps with that. after reading dave price’s art of beatdown article i decided to experiment with some different cards.

current sideboard was:

4 engineered plague
4 leyline of the void
3 contagion
2 cursed scroll
2 perish

what i am currently experimenting with is:

4 withered wretch (replacing leyline of the void)
3 contagion
2 cuombaji witches (replacing engineered plague)
2 withering wisps (replacing engineered plague)
2 cursed scroll
2 perish

the later is more of a beatdown sideboard and wisps and witches and wretches can actually kill your opponent. witches work well when you have creatures with at least 2 toughness. wisps is good board control and while it is not plague, it has the added bonus of actually damaging your opponent. because of the addition of all of the BB cards in the sideboard i added an extra swamp to the main deck. seems fine for now. we’ll see how it goes.
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greendragon



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:59 pm    Post subject: consistent mana Reply with quote

one of things i have noticed with this deck is city of traitors can disrupt your mana production. this happens two ways, the 1st is it is vulnerable to wasteland, the 2nd is you want to play your wastelands to disrupt your opponent destroying your own city of traitors unfortunately.

after reading dave price's art of beat down and testing a lot i have made the following changes. starting with the mana base.

sideboard
4 engineered plague (all those tribal decks like goblins)
4 withered wretch (he's a zombie and can swing)
4 dread of night (mostly put this in for countersliver)
2 perish (elves mostly)
1 spinning darkness (good random removal)

main deck
16 swamp
4 wasteland
4 dark ritual
4 duress
4 cabal therapy
3 hatred
3 umezawa's jitte
2 cursed scroll
4 sarcomancy
4 carnophage
4 dauthi slayer
4 phyrexian negator
4 skittering skirge

i decided not to run spot removal in the deck. if the deck is not fast enought to get ahead of tombstalker and other potentially problematic creatures i built it wrong.

another reason i made these changes is negator. i want as many permanents on the table as i can get just in case i need to block something with him or swing.

the other thing is my opponents are likely to bring in some kind of artifact destruction and i will be brining in global removal if anything. i cut a hatred because you cannot get to 5 mana quite as quickly now without city of traitors.
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greendragon



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:22 am    Post subject: hatred Reply with quote

hatred

sideboard
4 wall of souls
4 dystopia
4 diabolic edict
3 expirtate

main
16 swamp
4 dark ritual
4 culling the weak
4 cabal therapy
4 unmask
4 hatred
4 sarcomancy
4 carnophage
4 dauthi horror
4 dauthi slayer
4 phyrexian negator
4 skittering skirge

the deck goes off on turn 2. dark ritual out 2 guys on turn 1. followed by unmask or cabal therapy. then culling the weak hatred.

the negator are questionable though as they cost 3 in a fast deck they seem slow in this deck, but allow for you to catch up and deal with sarcomancy.

wall of souls has replaced engineered plague as this helps you to kill your opponent. and you do what a 4 extirpage.
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greendragon



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 4:36 pm    Post subject: thx for the reply Reply with quote

ya, hatred is definitely bad in the format at the moment.

however, extirpate proved not bad in the deck as it allowed you to extirpate at the end of your opponents turn and then kill them if they had nothing to stop you.

eva green is a really strong deck. at the moment i'm testing suicide black so we'll see. may convert to eva green after it's all said and done.

just like to test to see for myself.

also, i may be looking to run a suicide black deck with a few hatred's in it. we'll see. thanks for the advice though. definitely sound.
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greendragon



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:02 pm    Post subject: hatred Reply with quote

so i finally got a version of the deck that seems to be solid. there are obvious flaws and weaknesses, but it wins 60% of the time if played right.

hatred

sideboard
4 wall of souls
4 contagion
3 perish
2 spinning darkness
2 shriekmaw

main deck
14 swamp
4 wasteland
4 dark ritual
4 culling the weak
4 duress
4 sinkhole
4 hatred
4 sarcomancy
4 carnophage
4 dauthi horror
4 dauthi slayer
4 hypnotic specter
2 shriekmaw

the deck plays well and though i would like to see 1 or 2 diabolic intent in the deck, all of the removal is very necessary to deal with a field of better quality creature then black has to offer.

the deck wins by mana depravation until it can draw into its combo. while 8 land destruction cards is not a lot. combined with 1cc creatures it sets your opponent back a turn if they are not countered.

culling of the weak can also be used to drop an early hypnotic specter and skriekmaw as well in case your opponent gets out a tarmogoyf. generally vs aggressive decks you can sideboard 12 cards in and remove 4 duress, 4 hatred, 4 culling the weak which are not as effective against aggressive decks for +4 wall, +4 contagion, +2 spin, +2 shriekmaw. though the walls are not removal, they slow aggressive decks.

culling of the weak allows you to potentially win on turn 2 if you go ritual zombie, creature, next turn play land culling the weak hatred. and sometimes you gotta do that to stop combo from winning. where hatred comes in handy is vs control decks or combo decks like ad nauseum tendrils and other abusive storm decks. it is nearly as fast. sometimes it becomes important to sacrifice your own creatures if they try to steal them with vendaken shackles or other tactics.

many might say crystal vein should be in there above wasteland. i tend to disagree simply because of they wide array of land you need to get rid of in legacy 1.5 like academy ruins, maze of ith, tabernacle, mishra's factory, glacial chasm, etc.

the lack of graveyard hate is a simple question of the fact the deck does not have room for it. the deck wants tutors before that and should win anyway in most cases before they set that noise up.

hypnotic specter was one of the last cards to go in the deck and i tested a lot of others before including them like stromgald crusader, skittering skirge, nantuko shade, phyrexian negator, dark confidant, tombstalker even and nixiathid. specter is the best for the deck. many decks out there have no answer to it early. so even if you have to use culling of the weak to get it down, do it. he wins a lot of games for this deck.

though a little slow, i love shriekmaw in this deck. it fits the theme and has fear allowing you to use him for hatred. it is board advantage. their creature dies and you gain one with fear.

i also tested removal like smother and edict and i found it is too easily stopped by chalice of the void. i think it is important for the removal in the deck to get around chalice and chalice really does not hurt this deck. against it i side out culling the weak. also the heavy removal is necessary because of decks which play umzawa's jitte which i also think is slow for this deck. if i played it, maybe i'd play 1 or 2, but i like the cards in here more.
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