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Proposed change: coinflip to determine who wins after time


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thedarkness



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 580

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bairdsy wrote:
magicman85 wrote:
I think they should use chess style clocks where each player gets 25 minutes to complete the match. If a players time runs out, he loses.


This is the way MTGO does it and is really the fairest option. Anyone want to petition for this to be added to MWS?
We can't petition to have things added to MWS. It's dead. Only one of the folks who built it does ANYTHING with it anymore, and only as a hobby. He's working on his own thing right now.

But I agree; that idea is a pretty good one. It thoroughly penalizes slow play, requires people to be attentive during games and know how their decks operate during competetive play (moreso when using long-turn-win combo decks), and if the game doesn't start right when the timers do, it's still easy to figure out who wins and who loses when the timer is called.

Other ideas that might be viable would be welcome.
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Bairdsy



Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

warwizard87 wrote:
Bairdsy wrote:
magicman85 wrote:
I think they should use chess style clocks where each player gets 25 minutes to complete the match. If a players time runs out, he loses.


This is the way MTGO does it and is really the fairest option. Anyone want to petition for this to be added to MWS?


i actually hate the idea, since some decks become kind of unrealistic at that point.

especially ones that take several turns in a row or just take awhile to win, i feel it adds another hindrance to deck design.


Translation: Some decks are designed to be really slow and penalise players who play at a reasonable speed.

This is why I like this idea so much - it penalises ONLY the players who stall for time and therefore avoids the issue altogether.
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warwizard87



Joined: 04 Oct 2006
Posts: 201

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bairdsy wrote:
warwizard87 wrote:
Bairdsy wrote:
magicman85 wrote:
I think they should use chess style clocks where each player gets 25 minutes to complete the match. If a players time runs out, he loses.


This is the way MTGO does it and is really the fairest option. Anyone want to petition for this to be added to MWS?


i actually hate the idea, since some decks become kind of unrealistic at that point.

especially ones that take several turns in a row or just take awhile to win, i feel it adds another hindrance to deck design.


Translation: Some decks are designed to be really slow and penalise players who play at a reasonable speed.

This is why I like this idea so much - it penalises ONLY the players who stall for time and therefore avoids the issue altogether.


translation your a wrong, apparently you haven't played decks like eggs before, one turn can take take upwards to 20 mins, your gonna win the game that turn, yes but your doing 50+ things that turn to do it. why should that player lose because his deck take 1 long big turn to win the game. its like welp i won game 1,but looks liek i lose the match any way cuz i only have 5 mins left to do things next game, great way to stifle deck builders.

not to mention most decks "that are designed to be slow" as you point out are called control decks. and some of them can take alot of time and effort to set up a win, i am a aggro and combo player at heart, but i do not like setting up a rule that limits deck choice. hell if you rember old school wake, it took 30+ mins to win the first game, that year at regionals we had a massive number of 1-0 wins and 1-1 draws. it happens. decks liek that should always exist from time to time, setting up a rule set that stifles creativity in deck building is sick to me. heck i played water slide that year and one round i played vs bullet proof monk (loved deck names back then) we went into extra turns before i won game 1.


Last edited by warwizard87 on Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:45 am; edited 2 times in total
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derflippi
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 19 Mar 2005
Posts: 1402
Location: Weiterstad

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chess clock is the most impractical thing as most players don't even know when thay have priority to pass.
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warwizard87



Joined: 04 Oct 2006
Posts: 201

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CMA-Flippi wrote:
Chess clock is the most impractical thing as most players don't even know when thay have priority to pass.


this to, not to mention you would be passing priority back and forth so quickly, unless the program is "smart" it would never be accurate enough.
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Bairdsy



Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

warwizard87 wrote:
CMA-Flippi wrote:
Chess clock is the most impractical thing as most players don't even know when thay have priority to pass.


this to, not to mention you would be passing priority back and forth so quickly, unless the program is "smart" it would never be accurate enough.


now there's a counter argument I can get behind. This is why it makes sense on MTGO but not in MWS or in live play.
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pseudodespot



Joined: 08 May 2011
Posts: 496

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IRL flipping a coin to determine the winner of a match is well, look it up yourselves, not recommended.
Why would we advertise an illegal behavior?
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thedarkness



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 580

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

warwizard87 wrote:
Bairdsy wrote:
warwizard87 wrote:
Bairdsy wrote:
magicman85 wrote:
I think they should use chess style clocks where each player gets 25 minutes to complete the match. If a players time runs out, he loses.


This is the way MTGO does it and is really the fairest option. Anyone want to petition for this to be added to MWS?


i actually hate the idea, since some decks become kind of unrealistic at that point.

especially ones that take several turns in a row or just take awhile to win, i feel it adds another hindrance to deck design.


Translation: Some decks are designed to be really slow and penalise players who play at a reasonable speed.

This is why I like this idea so much - it penalises ONLY the players who stall for time and therefore avoids the issue altogether.


translation your a wrong, apparently you haven't played decks like eggs before, one turn can take take upwards to 20 mins, your gonna win the game that turn, yes but your doing 50+ things that turn to do it. why should that player lose because his deck take 1 long big turn to win the game. its like welp i won game 1,but looks liek i lose the match any way cuz i only have 5 mins left to do things next game, great way to stifle deck builders.

not to mention most decks "that are designed to be slow" as you point out are called control decks. and some of them can take alot of time and effort to set up a win, i am a aggro and combo player at heart, but i do not like setting up a rule that limits deck choice. hell if you rember old school wake, it took 30+ mins to win the first game, that year at regionals we had a massive number of 1-0 wins and 1-1 draws. it happens. decks liek that should always exist from time to time, setting up a rule set that stifles creativity in deck building is sick to me. heck i played water slide that year and one round i played vs bullet proof monk (loved deck names back then) we went into extra turns before i won game 1.
If you have no idea how to use Eggs, your turn can wind up taking 20 minutes. When I played Eggs, I usually won THE MATCH in 20 minutes. Like I said, it penalizes combo players for not knowing how to use their decks, and in any situation where there's a timer, that should matter.
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AnnulVapore



Joined: 10 Oct 2007
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Proposed change: coinflip to determine who wins after ti Reply with quote

niknight wrote:
2. From a judging perspective, it was impossible to enforce. There is no way to sync up the timers in the play applications with the round clock.



and this differs from the current rules how?

if you are able to determine whose turn it is NOW, so that "active player finishes his turn and then the match ends," there is literally no difference whatsoever to determining whose turn it is now and then adding five more.
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thedarkness



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 580

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pseudodespot wrote:
IRL flipping a coin to determine the winner of a match is well, look it up yourselves, not recommended.
Why would we advertise an illegal behavior?
Um. Because we aren't beholden to the rules set by the DCI, and because of all of the other reasons you clearly didn't read?
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pseudodespot



Joined: 08 May 2011
Posts: 496

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a difference in doing something a bit different than irl and doing something that is illegal irl. That line shouldn't be crossed, no matter the benefit.
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thedarkness



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 580

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pseudodespot wrote:
There is a difference in doing something a bit different than irl and doing something that is illegal irl. That line shouldn't be crossed, no matter the benefit.
That argument is 100% completely and utterly flawed in every possible way, especially since this entire site is only barely legal enough not to have been taken down by WotC's lawyers, and I'm sure they would prefer we did NOTHING the way they did things.

But despite that, you may notice that by and large, the rules we play by here are as close to DCI rules as possible. The problem is, not all DCI rulings translate cleanly from paper Magic into online Magic not run through a program with a built-in method of upholding the rules, and as such, not all of the DCI rulings make sense here. Specifically this one. I explained exactly why this specific ruling should be changed completely from the current mostly-in-line-with-the-DCI ruling in an earlier post. And that entire thing notwithstanding, did you read the FIRST SENTENCE in the original post? This is a totally moot point ANYWAY.

People, if you're gonna comment here, do me a favor and don't use stupid arguments that have already been addressed. Read the previous content. There isn't that much.
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pseudodespot



Joined: 08 May 2011
Posts: 496

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have stated my point. You are allowed to have a different opinion. That won't change the fact that we will not use methods that get you disqualified. Have a nice day, sir.
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thedarkness



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 580

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pseudodespot wrote:
I have stated my point. You are allowed to have a different opinion. That won't change the fact that we will not use methods that get you disqualified. Have a nice day, sir.
Um. You realize that, for years and years, Magic-League DID use coinflips to determine matches, right? The ridiculous reason you posted never had any impact at all on decisions made here.
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moscowdemon
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Posts: 297

PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We already got an [O] answer, discussing this just seems like time wasted.
The reasoning used to try to make a case for having five turns (how is it different than now when we can't track whose turn it is when time is called) is pretty much too short sighted. The fact that we can't be positive at all times is precisely why we don't wish to add MORE turns. If players don't notice for 3 minutes, who is to say they didn't already play out those 5 extra turns (and maybe more)? Having the match simply end when time is noticed by players and the current turn ends is the best way to be fair, minimize cheating the most, and also keep our events running in a timely fashion.
Coin flipping to determine who should win at time seems like a waste of magic playing time. I don't sign up for a tournament to play a 50 minute round to the best of my abilities and end up going to time with an opponent who might not be playing as quickly as I am JUST SO I CAN FLIP A COIN TO SEE IF I WIN. Granted, you could make the claim that highest life is also like flipping a coin, but it actually requires you play meaningful Magic. You could maybe make an argument with most permanents in play (assuming you allow each player to take the same amount of turns in the game using turn order and not counting extra turns, i.e. Time Warp), or even most cards in library or hand, or anything else that REQUIRES Magic play.
Also, allowing coin flips there opens the door too widely to people finding other reasons to want to use coin flips (and other random methods which don't involve magic play) to determine winners. It is illegal according to our PG to randomly determine a winner and doing such will come with a penalty of a disqualification. Why would we create a loophole which can cause a gray area of confusion for players and can lead to DQs of players who have no clue it is illegal some of the time and legal the rest of the time? It just would be too much hassle.
Continue working on your idea. Magic-League will take the time to look at ideas that are well-thought out with very good reasoning for policy change. This is a discussion brought up many times, but not yet with proper research and commitment to SOLVING the problem, but more just shifting the problems.
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