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Toxic behavior and impunity II



 
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Fanboy1



Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:26 pm    Post subject: Toxic behavior and impunity II Reply with quote

this is the old thread, rightfully closed:

http://www.magic-league.com/phpBB/about17177.html

There was a pretty severe mismanagement of the initial situation involved. Since the last thread had so many replies I just thought it was worth to point it out.

this is the logger:

http://www.magic-league.com/mllogger/show.php?id=6847

So metal_slime plays an Aura - Enchant Creature from his hand with no creatures in play (a misclick). The correct thing to do at this point would be to rewind the situation, to untap his lands and return the Enchantment to his hand.
But instead his opponent (who made the thread afterwards) tells him to bury the spell (???) and metal_slime does so and puts the Enchantment in his Graveyard (???).

So what do we learn?

Always go to j4u when you have an issue with rules and/or misclicks. Your opponent could be as clueless as you or just flat out lying.
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pg8



Joined: 27 Feb 2011
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As much as I don't like it when locked threads get resurrected, I think the homily at the end is pretty important. Always go to judges!
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Livermush



Joined: 05 Aug 2012
Posts: 319

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's also important to note that in a real-world game, he could not have cast the enchant creature without a target anyway, so his lands stay tapped, his mana pool stays the same, the enchant goes back to his hand, and he gets a warning for game infraction - whatever.
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pg8



Joined: 27 Feb 2011
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Livermush wrote:
It's also important to note that in a real-world game, he could not have cast the enchant creature without a target anyway, so his lands stay tapped, his mana pool stays the same, the enchant goes back to his hand, and he gets a warning for game infraction - whatever.


His lands would be untapped.
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StarWolf



Joined: 28 Jul 2011
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This commonly happens in real life magic also. Someone plays a spell with an invalid target so the opponent tells them they have to put it in their graveyard, target one of their own permanents, etc. Don't be hesitant to ask a judge what the proper procedure is if you're unsure.
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Livermush



Joined: 05 Aug 2012
Posts: 319

PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pg8 wrote:
Livermush wrote:
It's also important to note that in a real-world game, he could not have cast the enchant creature without a target anyway, so his lands stay tapped, his mana pool stays the same, the enchant goes back to his hand, and he gets a warning for game infraction - whatever.


His lands would be untapped.


Are you sure? Can you point to it in the rules to back that up?
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xJudicatorx



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 696

PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

717.1. If a player realizes that he or she can't legally take an action after starting to do so, the entire action is reversed and any payments already made are canceled. No abilities trigger and no effects apply as a result of an undone action. If the action was casting a spell, the spell returns to the zone it came from. The player may also reverse any legal mana abilities activated while making the illegal play, unless mana from them or from any triggered mana abilities they triggered was spent on another mana ability that wasn't reversed. Players may not reverse actions that moved cards to a library, moved cards from a library to any zone other than the stack, or caused a library to be shuffled.
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Livermush



Joined: 05 Aug 2012
Posts: 319

PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

xJudicatorx wrote:
717.1. If a player realizes that he or she can't legally take an action after starting to do so, the entire action is reversed and any payments already made are canceled. No abilities trigger and no effects apply as a result of an undone action. If the action was casting a spell, the spell returns to the zone it came from. The player may also reverse any legal mana abilities activated while making the illegal play, unless mana from them or from any triggered mana abilities they triggered was spent on another mana ability that wasn't reversed. Players may not reverse actions that moved cards to a library, moved cards from a library to any zone other than the stack, or caused a library to be shuffled.


Neat! Thank you!
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Livermush



Joined: 05 Aug 2012
Posts: 319

PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

xJudicatorx wrote:
717.1. If a player realizes that he or she can't legally take an action after starting to do so, the entire action is reversed and any payments already made are canceled. No abilities trigger and no effects apply as a result of an undone action. If the action was casting a spell, the spell returns to the zone it came from. The player may also reverse any legal mana abilities activated while making the illegal play, unless mana from them or from any triggered mana abilities they triggered was spent on another mana ability that wasn't reversed. Players may not reverse actions that moved cards to a library, moved cards from a library to any zone other than the stack, or caused a library to be shuffled.


What if the cost to activate the ability is to draw a card? (hypothetical)
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pg8



Joined: 27 Feb 2011
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Livermush wrote:
xJudicatorx wrote:
717.1. If a player realizes that he or she can't legally take an action after starting to do so, the entire action is reversed and any payments already made are canceled. No abilities trigger and no effects apply as a result of an undone action. If the action was casting a spell, the spell returns to the zone it came from. The player may also reverse any legal mana abilities activated while making the illegal play, unless mana from them or from any triggered mana abilities they triggered was spent on another mana ability that wasn't reversed. Players may not reverse actions that moved cards to a library, moved cards from a library to any zone other than the stack, or caused a library to be shuffled.


What if the cost to activate the ability is to draw a card? (hypothetical)


Relevant section in bold.
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Livermush



Joined: 05 Aug 2012
Posts: 319

PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pg8 wrote:
Livermush wrote:
xJudicatorx wrote:
717.1. If a player realizes that he or she can't legally take an action after starting to do so, the entire action is reversed and any payments already made are canceled. No abilities trigger and no effects apply as a result of an undone action. If the action was casting a spell, the spell returns to the zone it came from. The player may also reverse any legal mana abilities activated while making the illegal play, unless mana from them or from any triggered mana abilities they triggered was spent on another mana ability that wasn't reversed. Players may not reverse actions that moved cards to a library, moved cards from a library to any zone other than the stack, or caused a library to be shuffled.


What if the cost to activate the ability is to draw a card? (hypothetical)


What would the offense be, then. If there was a card whose cost was to draw a card, you could conceivably, once per match, draw for free, unless they get you with a different penalty.
Relevant section in bold.
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Fanboy1



Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you get caught doing things like that on purpose, you get a DQ for cheating.
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_Godica



Joined: 26 Nov 2012
Posts: 254

PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes but if it's not on purpose?

I think Livermush just discovered why such a card is doomed to remain hypothetical.
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clemage
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 13 Apr 2008
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fanboy1, did you go to judges4you to show this case. If we are not told about, we can't do anything about it.
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