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New Judge Test


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mchosa



Joined: 11 Aug 2009
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

are you drunk? lol chill out bro. i am not sure how u deviated into that tangent.....

i was just trying to add to the discussion on the possibility of non-judge TC's: they could get rulings on card interactions from the place i mentioned prior.

you basically made my point even more valid with your "5-10%" comment, since the penalty guidelines are not as complicated and not subject to interpretation AND not part of the "judge test". it would be very simple to look up and dispense the necessary infraction.
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bla11



Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No it is not so simple because some of the players, not all of them, are stupid retards that like to discuss and challange every single little thing that happens.
You can't reason with those idiots.
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darkwizard42
Level 2 Judge


Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Part of the process of passing the Judge Test is to demonstrate responsibility, and ability to handle situations that fall outside of rulings based on just cards. That is why there is an approval process. You have to learn how to deal with different situations and its not just simply applying the penalty guidelines, its learning how and why they apply and being able to communicate that effectively with the people/person it applies to.
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niknight



Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 261

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To put this matter to bed... here are a list of reasons why having non judge TC's is a bad idea:

1. There needs to be somebody who is accountable for the event at all times. If we opened up the ability to run an event, you would see a significantly larger number of tournaments that were abandoned as soon as the "host" lost.

2. The person running the tournament must be able to do so in a self-sufficient manner. This means fixing things like misreports, non-reports, enforcing rulings, etc. To fix most issues regarding reporting requires the judge to have at least minimal access to our ratings database. I will quite confidently say that we will NEVER give that ability out to people who we don't believe will take care of it. In addition, what do you do if two players in a match don't accept a ruling from some outside source (since these TC's wouldn't be able to rule)? Without being able to issue and enforce penalties, there is nothing to stop one player from holding up a tournament by being a jerk.

3. By their nature, human beings are going to take the easiest route to whatever they want. If we introduced the concept of a non-judge TC, we would simultaneously see an increase in the number of minis (a good thing) and a severe decrease in the number of people who become judges (a bad thing). This would cause an exponential increase in the amount of time it takes to get a ruling.

Tl;Dr A non-judge TC would, by necessity, not be given access to what they need to effectively run a mini, thus negating the idea of having them.
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bla11



Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

niknight wrote:
To put this matter to bed... here are a list of reasons why having non judge TC's is a bad idea:

1. There needs to be somebody who is accountable for the event at all times. If we opened up the ability to run an event, you would see a significantly larger number of tournaments that were abandoned as soon as the "host" lost.

This argument is obviously invalid.

Nobody is taking about letting everyone run a mini whenever they want. Obviously some rules have to apply to non judge TC's also. Like a short training period, immediate booting if they abandon a tournament and so on.

Quote:

Tl;Dr A non-judge TC would, by necessity, not be given access to what they need to effectively run a mini, thus negating the idea of having them.

That's simply because you do not understand how a non judge TC would work at all.
It basicly lets a Non-Judge run a Mini while Judges are present but it doesn't allow them to do it without judges.

The Non-Judge does most of the work and if there are some problems he cannot solve he will ask a judge to do so.
Thus the amount of time it takes a judge to watch over a mini is greatly reduced. It's a win win situation if you understand how it works.
Sadly you don't
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GunsAndDope



Joined: 12 Jul 2011
Posts: 261

PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If over 90% of questions in #j4u don't involve rules questions, then why not come up with a J0, or a techie if you will.

To become a techie, you get quizzed on all the floor rules.

As it stands right now, the j1 rules test here is too hard.
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darkwizard42
Level 2 Judge


Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Note: All players should know the floor rules and penalty guidelines regardless of their status as judge or player.

@bla11 YOU do not understand how judging works on the site. The way the site is organized and developed it would not work to do things your way. The judge administration side of the website is not just a pieced together thing that we can give access to only a few parts. By the way, if a judge abandons a mini or a trial, and there is no reason given, that is a big problem, and our judging staff does not take it lightly.

Your next point is also invalid. If a judge has to be present at all times when a non-judge TC is running the tournament it doesn't make less work for them. We still have to be online, active and actively ready to make rulings. This is no different than the current situation.

Please reread niknight's post.
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bla11



Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

darkwizard42 wrote:


@bla11 YOU do not understand how judging works on the site. The way the site is organized and developed it would not work to do things your way. The judge administration side of the website is not just a pieced together thing that we can give access to only a few parts. By the way, if a judge abandons a mini or a trial, and there is no reason given, that is a big problem, and our judging staff does not take it lightly.


You do not undertand how things work.

To run a mini there are 2 things required
1.) A judge
2.) A tournament organisator

Right now the judge is also the tournament organisator and has to run scripts, start tournaments, correct wrong results, pair rounds...

Now you argue that someone has to be trustworthy to have access to the site and if a person is trustworthy or not is decided by if he knows magic rules.

Obviously that is bullshit.

If a person is trustworthy or not is something completly different from the judge test. I could take the test and pass it and you still will not accept my as a judge because you don't like open-minded people like me. I've no problem with that but i know how to argue at least.

For the most part an organisator does there is no judge at all required, like correcting wrong results and so on, for other parts like when 2 people are arguing about stupid stuff, that's when you need a judge.

Quote:

Your next point is also invalid. If a judge has to be present at all times when a non-judge TC is running the tournament it doesn't make less work for them. We still have to be online, active and actively ready to make rulings. This is no different than the current situation.

True, that's why every judge that's online, active and more or less actively ready runs tournaments all the time.
Your point is obviously invalid.
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moscowdemon
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Posts: 297

PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this is getting very close to being another locked thread...

Also, I guess I should put this out there: What would be the point of becoming a judge anymore? Why would anyone ever want to become a judge and do this extra volunteer work when they can simply make minis on their own without one? What about the hard work I have put in to become a judge?
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GunsAndDope



Joined: 12 Jul 2011
Posts: 261

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So if a judge has to be present for all Magic-League games, why are we allowed to run challenge matches for rating?

I mean, I fully understand that when you run a mini, you want a judge here because it's not only for rating, it's also for team points, both of which can give you a bye for masters.

However, I do not see the reason why we can't have a bot to run casual tournaments. Flippi has said before that it's because:

1.) There might not be a judge in #j4u, which would lead to problems over rulings; but if these were casual tournaments for no ratings or team points, then it is no different than finding a casual match in the channel.

2.) If people could start and play in casual tournaments, there would be no reason for judges to run minis; but would players rather play in a casual tournament that isn't for ratings or team points or play in a mini where it's more competitive?

Magic-League often experiences lulls where there just aren't any minis. I think using a bot to allow us to form ourselves into casual tournaments would be a great thing for the community. It would give players something to do at all times of the day, regardless of whether someone was running minis or not, and this would cause an increase in our player base which would result in more minis filled when they're actually run, do to players coming back more often.

Please consider making a #Casual4You channel where we can have bot-ran casual tournaments.


And bla11: don't get mad dude, just study and pass this judge's test (which is way easier said than done).
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