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Magic-League Cube Rebuild!


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moscowdemon
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Posts: 297

PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:14 pm    Post subject: Magic-League Cube Rebuild! Reply with quote

After just over a year since the last update to the cube, pg8 and myself are taking the time to work on it and update it. One of the major problems we notice is that control is extremely dominant, so we wish to fix that along with other things.
What we would like is your help and opinions! A link to the current cube list - http://magic-league.com/news/493/cube_sealed_rebuild.html
We are also unpowering the cube. The reasoning behind this is due to how much it enables control variants and also adds to some unfun games in general.
Please provide your input below. Since the last rebuild, we have gained ISD block, Planechase 2, and M13. We are working on the list actively, but if there are any cards you wish to see removed or added, please let us know below! Providing explanation will also help. Please avoid putting down cards to be removed that involve power and fast mana (since we already discussed this).
Thanks!
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GreenBear



Joined: 27 Jul 2010
Posts: 901

PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blue looks way to good in that cube list.
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Bigshow



Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 1374
Location: Igloo town

PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GreenBear wrote:
Blue looks way to good in that cube list.


It's because of people like you, the game of magic is being dumbed down.

And because of you, people may not enjoy Magic-League as much as they could have.

This is a warning. Any future trolling of the forums can result in a ban from them.
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pg8



Joined: 27 Feb 2011
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GreenBear wrote:
Blue looks way to good in that cube list.



We agree; blue is currently dominant in our cube. That's one of the reasons we want to rebuild it. Any suggestions for what to cut/add?
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struikje



Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 108

PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kami of ancient law seems like a bit weak to me. There are better white 2 drops that fit in there I think.

Cards that I'd expect in are the better miracles (bonfire/entreat/terminus/devastation tide/temporal mastery), the exalted knights, huntmaster, restoration angel,...

Blue cards that don't seem to be on the list are opposition/evacuation. Those could come in instead of the power cards.

There's also allready alot of hexproof in the cube (with the trolls in green), and hexproof + sword/jitte is such a frustrating way to lose a game. That's why I'd advocate against invisible stalker, Siggarda and geist of saint traft. The latter 2 are maybe more acceptable, as they do require 2 different colors, but I really dislike invisble stalker as its allready blue.

Also is there a reason only the blue guilds have signets?

edit: you may just aswell remove mind twist. without fast mana it isn't any fun anymore
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pg8



Joined: 27 Feb 2011
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

struikje wrote:
Kami of ancient law seems like a bit weak to me. There are better white 2 drops that fit in there I think.

Cards that I'd expect in are the better miracles (bonfire/entreat/terminus/devastation tide/temporal mastery), the exalted knights, huntmaster, restoration angel,...

Blue cards that don't seem to be on the list are opposition/evacuation. Those could come in instead of the power cards.

There's also allready alot of hexproof in the cube (with the trolls in green), and hexproof + sword/jitte is such a frustrating way to lose a game. That's why I'd advocate against invisible stalker, Siggarda and geist of saint traft. The latter 2 are maybe more acceptable, as they do require 2 different colors, but I really dislike invisble stalker as its allready blue.

Also is there a reason only the blue guilds have signets?

edit: you may just aswell remove mind twist. without fast mana it isn't any fun anymore


Kami and the signets are probably out.
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sc4rs



Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 859

PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blue has far too many counterspells, and far too few weaker utility cards. Vapor Snag, Think Twice, Preordain, Gitaxian Probe, and Erayo, Sortami Ascendant are all examples of slightly weaker blue cards that also have the added benefit of being playable or arguably stronger in a tempo/agro type build, which could replace cards like Forbid, Arcane Denial, and Miscalculation that serve only as redundant copies of counterspells that serve to make U/x control overpowered and under-interactive.

Arcane Denial
Condescend
Counterspell
Cryptic Command
Forbid
Force of Will
Force Spike
Glen Elendra Archmage
Mana Drain
Mana Leak
Memory Lapse
Miscalculation
Misdirection
Remand
Venser, Shaper Savant
Willbender

is just an awful lot of counterspells/retargeting.

Other underpowered-but-still-very-playable cards like Confiscate could be added as well to temper some of the advantage Blue has in getting bombs like Tinker and Fact or Fiction as well.
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pseudodespot



Joined: 08 May 2011
Posts: 496

PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thragtusk (obv. powerhouse)
Searing Spear (red needs redundancy)
Flames of the Firebrand (again)
Stromkirk Noble (again)
Reckless Waif (you get the idea...)
Brimstone Volley
Pillar of Flame
Thundermaw Hellkite (a playable Dragon, yay)
Lingering Souls
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Liliana of the Veil
Garruk Relentless
Kessig Wolf Run
Avacyn's Pilgrim
Gavony Township
Prey Upon
Silent Departure
Unburial Rites
Wolfir Avenger
Strangleroot Geist
Moorland Haunt
Delver of Secrets
Terminus
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Vault of the Archangel
Restoration Angel
Sigarda Host of whatever
Ajani 3.0
Luckfire of the Damned
Entreat the Angels
Huntmaster of the Fells
Geist of Saint Traft
Desolate Lighthouse
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Griselbrand
Mist Raven
Gather the Townsfolk
Increasing Devotion
Vorapede
Gravecrawler
Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
Forbidden Alchemy
Havengul Lich
Hellrider
The ISD duals
Wolfir Silverheart
Snapcaster Mage
Bloodgift Demon
Dungeon Geists
Fiend Hunter
Revenge of the Hunted
Geist-Honored Monk
Geralf's Messenger
Bloodline Keeper
Devil's Play
Zealous Conscripts
Blood Artist
Civilized Scholar
Tragic Slip
Diregraf Ghoul
Fettergeist

But generally speaking:
What is the purpose of this cube?
How should each color play?
Or is it just a mess out of good cards?
Are there archetypes for each color?

Throwing together a lot of bombs does not make a good cube.
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pg8



Joined: 27 Feb 2011
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pseudodespot wrote:
Thragtusk (obv. powerhouse)
Searing Spear (red needs redundancy)
Flames of the Firebrand (again)
Stromkirk Noble (again)
Reckless Waif (you get the idea...)
Brimstone Volley
Pillar of Flame
Thundermaw Hellkite (a playable Dragon, yay)
Lingering Souls
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Liliana of the Veil
Garruk Relentless
Kessig Wolf Run
Avacyn's Pilgrim
Gavony Township
Prey Upon
Silent Departure
Unburial Rites
Wolfir Avenger
Strangleroot Geist
Moorland Haunt
Delver of Secrets
Terminus
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Vault of the Archangel
Restoration Angel
Sigarda Host of whatever
Ajani 3.0
Luckfire of the Damned
Entreat the Angels
Huntmaster of the Fells
Geist of Saint Traft
Desolate Lighthouse
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Griselbrand
Mist Raven
Gather the Townsfolk
Increasing Devotion
Vorapede
Gravecrawler
Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
Forbidden Alchemy
Havengul Lich
Hellrider
The ISD duals
Wolfir Silverheart
Snapcaster Mage
Bloodgift Demon
Dungeon Geists
Fiend Hunter
Revenge of the Hunted
Geist-Honored Monk
Geralf's Messenger
Bloodline Keeper
Devil's Play
Zealous Conscripts
Blood Artist
Civilized Scholar
Tragic Slip
Diregraf Ghoul
Fettergeist

But generally speaking:
What is the purpose of this cube?
How should each color play?
Or is it just a mess out of good cards?
Are there archetypes for each color?

Throwing together a lot of bombs does not make a good cube.


Rest assured, this will not be a bomb/goodstuff cube. We're working out the archetypes and gimmicks now. Any particular archetypes we should include (other than the obvious aggro/control/midrange/ramp stuff)?
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moscowdemon
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Posts: 297

PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nearly done! Might go into testing mode soon!

Here is what we are currently at:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Av9rV6Nq5XO7dDdnckhzWndFeUxGamkyYzE0d2plbUE

Please leave any comments below. Defend your comments with actually info please Smile If you have any thoughts on changes or additions, this is a great time to alert us to them.
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xJudicatorx



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 696

PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My 2 cents:

Cut all cards that are weak in a vacuum: it's a bummer for example to get cards like Nissa Revane or Yawgmoth's Will that are good cards but useless in limited.

The cube doesn't have to have EVERY planeswalker ever printed. Unless you can make them less common, just pick 1 per color and 3 golds to be in your list.

Cut the power 9, there's just too much variance between having them and not having them.

Level out the occurrence of each color in your gold cards.
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moscowdemon
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Posts: 297

PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rusty, did you even take a look at the new list? Razz
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xJudicatorx



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 696

PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

moscowdemon wrote:
Rusty, did you even take a look at the new list? Razz
negative, did not notice that a new list was up - thought suggestions were being taken for a new list which was still in progress
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moscowdemon
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Posts: 297

PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was being sarcastic with you but fair enough xD check out the new one and give me some ideas! I have a small list growing of what to ADD to the new one. I would like to be at about 600. After that, maybe start whittling a bit to maybe 550 at the least. Then after that, perhaps try a practice sealed somehow (probably me manually setting it up somehow and building a bunch of sealed pools, then we just have volunteers play pools and test them out against other ones)
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xJudicatorx



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 696

PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, since you want aggro to be a viable options, there are 2 things that need to be added - and they have to be added in sufficient quantity that every now and then you hit the jackpot and have a nearly constructed playable deck.

1. Cheap creatures - not just efficient, which all Cube cards should be, but actually cheap. Scab-Clan Mauler is a good example.

2. Reach - not necessarily burn, but ways to close out the game. Timbermare would be a good call, but so would Blightning.


edit: Oh one more thing. We all love old classic cards, but power creep is real: you have to have a lot of new stuff in there.
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