Sideboarding with Dredge

magicman85 · Joined: 22 Aug 2009 Posts: 548

Just got this Dredge deck and I'm not quite sure the best way to sideboard yet. Here is the list (pretty standard except no LED's because it still runs decent and I don't want to put another $200 into it).

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
2 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
4 [8E] City of Brass
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum

// Creatures
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll

// Spells
4 [TO] Breakthrough
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [OD] Careful Study
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [DKA] Faithless Looting
1 [IA] Brainstorm

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 4 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [ISD] Ancient Grudge

My sideboard is not limited to those cards I also have an Iona, Shield of Emeria, and wouldn't mind buying some Leyline of Sanctity or Chain of Vapors if the need arises.

So...Lets say I win game 1 and I don't know what my opponent is sideboarding in for game 2. How many cards should I sb in? Sometimes I just leave my deck as is and sometimes I go
-1 Brainstorm
-1 Golgari Thug
-1 Ichorid
-1 Cabal Therapy (I feel like if I'm not on the play Cabal therapy isn't going to stop a Tormod's or Relic of Progenitus anyways)

+4 Nature's Claim (Pretty flexible at dealing with most graveyard hate except for Yixlid Jailer which I haven't seen anyone play)

Now lets say I lose game 2 and I see they are playing something like 3 Tormod's Crypt and 2 Relic of Progenitus. No Leyline of the Void and no Yixlid Jailer.

From my original deck I sb like this?
-1 Brainstorm
-1 Golgari Thug
-1 Ichorid
-1 Flame-kin Zealot (just going for Grave-Troll beats)
-1 Faithless Looting (no LED, Careful Study easier to cast)

+4 Ancient Gridge (to make them pop their hate early)
+1 Cabal Therapy (since I will be on the play)

OK now game 3 I'm on the play they are using 4 Leyline of the Void I sb like this?

-1 Brainstorm
-1 Cabal therapy
-1 Golgari Thug
-1 Ichorid

+4 Nature's Claim

DonDiggy · Joined: 16 Mar 2010 Posts: 27

First of all your deck is no good, sorry m8. Listen to Dr. Edge from germany, we know what's best. You either play Quodlaser (No DR+Targets at all) or Flayer-Dredge (cuz Flayer is best DR Target by far). In both cases, you just have to have LED's. This is not Casualmagic, Eternal is expensive, dig that player. See it's not that Dredge has more consistency with LED, its the fact that especially in the Preboard-Matchup you just have to overrun your opponent. Thats what LED is good for, explosions out of nowhere. And if you cant explode, loot it out. I assume the missing LEDs are the reason for you to run 2 additional lands. Thats okay, but no Paradise Crap, no discussions, Tarnished Citadel . Dredge players take damage from lands and get a hard one from this. And Dredge players dont play braincrap, thats for canadian-douchebags. AND DREDGE PLAYERS RUN 4 THERAPYS. And well, your SB really needs some memory's journey. Its good flexible antihate vs Extraction, 1-2 copies work fine. And 2 CoV. Need Space? Cut some grudges. And play all Therapy MD.

But now to the boarding plans. Main directive: NEVER CUT THERAPY! See, its not the 10 Token outta nowhere, its Therapy that really destroys your opponent. I could write a whole book about how to play Therapy correctly in dredge.

G1 Won, no clue of opponents deck:
+2 Claim +1 Journey -1 Imp -1 Ichorid -1 Breakthrough

I'd never run 4 Claims postboard if they might end up being useless. Prefer to have a journey for additional consistensy and having an out on Extractions.

G2 lost, Opp plays 3 Crypt 2 Relic's
Opp is a dumbfuck. You either play at least 6 pieces of hate. Or nothing. However, since you should only have 2 grudges in your sb, its +2 Grudge + 3 Claim. 5 is a good number when being on the play. Your cuts are okay exept for Looting, cut one Breakthough for it. You dont want to blindly explode vs Gravehate anyways.

G3 with Leylines at opponent:
Never cut Therapys. Never. Cut 1 Imp since you won't need em on turn1.

See, in general there's an order to side things out in dredge. It works in most matchups. You have to do it in the right order to have the mechanics still work. You generally cut things in the following order:

1) 1 Ichorid
2) 1 Thug
3) 1 BT
4) 1 BS (if you run such crap)
5) 1 Imp
6) Led's (if you play a good list)

cya

magicman85 · Joined: 22 Aug 2009 Posts: 548

lol thanks Dr. Edge. Really appreciate the feedback from a good dredge player. I was kind of on the fence about playing 3 or 4 Therapys I'll try maindecking

-1 Brainstorm
+1 Cabal Therapy

and

-2 Undiscovered Paradise
+2 Tarnished Citadel

I like your sideboard numbers, Memory's Journey sounds fun

Here is my list now:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [8E] City of Brass
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
2 [OD] Tarnished Citadel

// Creatures
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll

// Spells
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [OD] Careful Study
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [DKA] Faithless Looting

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 [ISD] Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 [ISD] Memory's Journey

BIRDYYY · Joined: 25 Jan 2006 Posts: 83

Ive known dredge since ravnica came out, after looking at the main legacy version. This is a realllyyy cheap deck to make, I doubt youll be putting much more money into it considering its such a cheap deck as it is.

BIRDYYY · Joined: 25 Jan 2006 Posts: 83

And im always gona say this...Tolarian winds is the best dredge card, it causes full explosion by itself.

DonDiggy · Joined: 16 Mar 2010 Posts: 27

Tolarian Winds is a good Card indeed. But the 3 reasons for not playing it are:

1) It's harder to play around a Daze, and gets caught by Snare. You dont want to prevent Snare from being a dead card against you.

2) A well played Ravenous Trap and youre damned.

3) Today's Legacy is too fast and too interactive. You really want CC1 Dredge-Enablers to be able to Therapy be4 running wild. And tbh, Breakthrough+Looting+Study are all > Winds.

aqualad33 · Level 1 Judge Joined: 18 Jan 2010 Posts: 252

here is an article you should read. This is pretty much heralded as the must read article for people looking to pilot dredge I am also a major fan of this article.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21777_The_Dark_Art_Of_Dredge_Fu.html

magicman85 · Joined: 22 Aug 2009 Posts: 548

Looks kind of old (no DKA). For the most part looks pretty decent, but I don't understand why he would SB out all 3 of his Ichorids vs the Dredge mirror since they are an easy way to kill your opponents bridges, make more zombies, and allow you to Dread Return your Elesh Norn easier. Also, he doesn't SB in any Nature's Claim so he would just lose to a Leyline of the Void =(

Spyx · Joined: 31 Oct 2004 Posts: 1186

One of the main points of the article is that boarding in reactive answers to hate is statistically bad.

aqualad33 · Level 1 Judge Joined: 18 Jan 2010 Posts: 252

I used matlab (a programing language that specializes in mathematical computation) to calculate how effective attempting to mulligan into leyline of the void is and here is what I got.

odds of having leyline

opener: 40%
after 1 mull: 35%
after 2 mull: 30%
after 3 mull: 25%
after 4 mull: 19%
after 5 mull: 13%
after 6 mull: .4%

odds of having leyline within

1 mulligans: 61%
2 mulligans: 73%
3 mulligans: 80%
4 mulligans: 83%
5 mulligans: 85%
6 mulligans:86.5%

and remember, in most cases dredge will win g1, so they will have to run these odds twice, and getting leyline of the void after 2 mulligans (ie you have 5 cards in hand, 4 after leyline hits play) is only 73% which is not consistent enough to do twice. (also remember all other hate can be hit by a turn 1 therapy) Therefore the article suggests that instead of reducing the power of your deck to play reactive cards, your better off just blowing them out when they dont have it, and attempting the dork squad strategy if they have to mull low to get it.