Is Cheerios playable in Legacy?

ck3gds · Joined: 21 Jun 2005 Posts: 996

Apparently Drew Levin was encouraged by Owen Turtenwald to try out Kobolds, and this got me scouring the Internet for a list that looks remotely viable. After some research and brewing, I came up with the following list:

4 Crimson Kobolds
4 Crookshank Kobolds
4 Kobolds of Kher Keep
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Signal Pest
4 Street Wraith
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

3 Beastmaster Ascension
2 Concordant Crossroads
3 Crop Rotation
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Lotus Petal

2 Forest
2 Contested War Zone
4 Gaea's Cradle

I'm kinda interested in bringing this for a run at my LGS's non-sanctioned Legacy event. For me this deck is actually quite budget-friendly, considering that I can use my playset of gold-bordered Gaea's Cradles, and I can borrow the set of Glimpses.

I'm just wondering if this deck will just roll over and die in the current environment, as I'm actually not very well-versed in Legacy. This is also why I'm posting here on ML - I also need some help in coming up with a reasonable sideboard. This deck looks like chow for Sneak Show, but how about the others?

Looking forward to any and all constructive feedback, thanks!

doc_morriar · Joined: 15 May 2008 Posts: 81

against a lot of decks, you will have the same effect as t1 or t2 open the warrens for 16

but theres this card called force of will that cripples your glimpse of nature, so g2 maybe try siding in xantid swarm or some silence like effect if you want to be in there for the long run..

my favourite card in the entire game, (also a legacy viable card) is called trinisphere. this can be cast t1 and t2 in the format which also cripples your deck.. but as i said, if you can play glimpse t1 or 2 your good.

some cards to make your draw smoother could be nice, (i say this without testing) like serum powder, or brainstorm etc

also, you must ask yourself, is grapeshot and or tendrils, just better than your current win con (lethal damage)

i hope this all made sense as im drunk after coming home from work Razz

p.s i love the idea and really hope it works out..

Lenin · Joined: 23 Jan 2007 Posts: 107

You can try this for fun but this deck wont be competitive.
You will lose to any good combo deck since they are still faster and to every other deck with Chalice of the Void, Engineered Plague, Ghostly Prison, Moat or any kind of mass removal.

Stucco · Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 902

I love the deck, but why not play Elves combo instead? Current combo runs any combination of FoW, Spell Pierce, and Daze which is gg against the Kobolds Combo. Cool deck, risky choice.

Candace · Joined: 08 Jun 2012 Posts: 35

I participated in the Legacy master yesterday with a Kobolds list I brewed after seeing Drew Levin's twitter feed. I had literally never played Legacy before, and knew I would have to drop after two rounds for Father's Day, so I just wanted to play something fun rather than something with a high chance of winning. The two rounds in the Masters I played it worked pretty well, although I lost match one because of play errors and match two I could have won but chose not to since I was going to drop.

I don't have a ton of experience with the deck but from my limited amount of testing, I believe you should not rely on attacking with your creatures. Like most good decks, Kobolds should have an A-plan and a B-plan, and swinging in with creatures is more of the B-plan in my eyes. Instead, my A-plan is to simply draw my entire deck and kill them with Grapeshot. To that end, my version of the deck runs a second draw engine in the form of the Chalice of the Void + Multani's Presence combo, in place of cards like Contested War Zone and Crossroads, and features more 0-drops. While playing the deck I just feel the attacking plan is so clunky and unreliable, although I do feel it is necessary to have as a B-plan.

On a last note, I don't see any way this deck can be viable in the grand scheme of things. But it IS a ton of fun and provided you get some good draws, you can do well with it in a more relaxed Legacy environment.

xJudicatorx · Joined: 27 Aug 2007 Posts: 564

I really like the idea of this deck. I wonder if I could put it together in time for Atlanta. Any cards you would suggest as alternates if I can't find everything?

ck3gds · Joined: 21 Jun 2005 Posts: 996

Thanks for all the feedback so far. Yes I agree that this deck is more fun than competitive, but seeing as I have next to zero experience in Legacy, I'd much rather play something a fun curve-ball rather than a hard-hitting straight.

@Lenin, Candace: yes now that you mention it I also think lethal damage might not be such a good idea. Nevertheless I'll still keep part of it in as a backup plan.

@Candace: The issue I'm concerned with the Chalice-Presence draw engine is that once I play a Chalice for 0, I essentially cut myself off from Lotus Petal, which functions as additional land drops for me. Given that I'm already running less mana sources than optimum (8 lands, 4 Lotus Petals, 4 ESGs), I'm not sure if having a two-card draw engine will help me here.

Anyway if let's say I incorporate Grapeshot as my plan A, then maybe I'll tweak the list to look something like this:

4 Gaea's Cradle

4 Crimson Kobolds
4 Crookshank Kobolds
4 Kobolds of Kher Keep
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
3 Phyrexian Walker
4 Street Wraith
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Crop Rotation
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Lotus Petal
1 Beastmaster Ascension
1 Concordant Crossroads
2 Grapeshot
1 Goblin Bombardment (for when storm doesn't reach critical?)

Maybe it's just me, but I think the deck now looks more unfocused - that, or I'm just plain bad at brewing. I actually prefer an all-in game plan, but if diversifying is the recommended way then I'll try and come up with something.

@xJudicatorx: I'm not sure what you don't have, but some of the cards are pretty much fixed. Besides Glimpse of Nature, Gaea's Cradle enables you to go bonkers (especially when you rotate into another copy) so I think their places are secure. Beastmaster Ascension and Concordant Crossroads are buddies, so you cut both (possibly for another win condition, like Grapeshot) or neither.

That said, please don't take my word as it is, as Legacy is something I'm really not familiar with much.

Lenin · Joined: 23 Jan 2007 Posts: 107

I tested this deck a bit and came up with this list for the storm kill

// Lands
2 [AVR] Forest
4 [US] Gaea's Cradle

// Creatures
4 [LG] Crimson Kobolds
4 [LG] Crookshank Kobolds
4 [LG] Kobolds of Kher Keep
4 [SOM] Memnite
4 [M11] Ornithopter
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
2 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
1 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [VI] Phyrexian Walker

// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
4 [CHK] Glimpse of Nature
4 [V09] Lotus Petal
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
2 [TSP] Grapeshot
2 [MM] Land Grant

the biggest problem of the deck is you NEED glimpse and it doesnt have any tutor mechanic. If you have glimpse in opening hand you can win turn one if you dont draw it you autolose Crying or Very sad

Candace · Joined: 08 Jun 2012 Posts: 35

@ck3gds: The fact that Lotus Petal gets countered by Chalice of the Void is a GOOD thing. When you draw the Petal in the middle of going off, you usually would rather have it get countered and draw an extra card than have the extra mana anyways. For that same reason, I don't see why you would run Crop Rotation. The deck doesn't need much mana at all.

@Lenin: That's exactly why I run the back-up draw engine of Chalice + Multani's Presence. It increases the number of games you can combo off a lot.

Here's my list.

Mana Sources - 14
4x Gaea's Cradle
4x Lotus Petal
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
1x Simian Spirit Guide
1x Chrome Mox

Creatures - 24
24x Kobolds and friends

Spells - 14
4x Glimpse of Nature
4x Multani's Presence
3x Chalice of the Void
2x Beastmaster Ascension
1x Grapeshot

Cycling - 8
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Street Wraith

Chrome Mox is something I've been playing around with, so far it's been decent but not great. It's probably better to run a Forest over it. That aside, the deck is very focused. Everything in the deck gets you towards one goal, casting Grapeshot for 20, except for the pair of Beastmaster's Ascension, and it's significantly better to run those two Ascensions rather than make the deck completely all-in on Grapeshot with another two of stuff you already have lots of. Beastmaster Ascension has won me a lot of games where my opponent dropped down a Chalice for 1 post-sideboard, which will instantly win the game against you (usually) without Ascension.[/b]

Lenin · Joined: 23 Jan 2007 Posts: 107

After some more testing I recognized that the Kobolds suck so came up with this list witch is practically a lame combo deck that auto-loses to FoW but owns pretty much anything else.

// Lands
4 [US] Gaea's Cradle

// Creatures
4 [SOM] Memnite
4 [M11] Ornithopter
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [VI] Phyrexian Walker
4 [GP] Wild Cantor
4 [VI] Phyrexian Marauder
4 [AL] Shield Sphere

// Spells
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
4 [CHK] Glimpse of Nature
4 [V09] Lotus Petal
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
1 [TSP] Grapeshot
4 [FUT] Summoner's Pact
3 [DS] Retract

Stucco · Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 902

ck3gds · Joined: 21 Jun 2005 Posts: 996

Actually the Crop Rotation is a relic from the Beastmaster Ascension build. I'm pretty sure it can be removed?

Actually, one good thing about having Beastmaster Ascension as the win condition is that even when Glimpse of Nature doesn't come out, I can just build counters and eventually attack for the win.

There are times when I have built counters over the course of 1-3 turns, and when Glimpse stops giving me critters, I just swarm over the opponent. Having Concordant Crossroads just speeds up this process.

Come to think of it, I might have just convinced myself to turn back to my first build! Laughing

Candace · Joined: 08 Jun 2012 Posts: 35

@ck3gds: The thing is, you can still do that with a Grapeshot build, but you don't just instantly lose to any of the numerous ways that Beastmaster Ascension gets shut off, many of which are even found mainboard.