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Banhammer Time!


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Reply to topic    Magic-League.com Forum Index -> Standard (T2) Decks

What do you think WOTC will ban in standard in the next announcement?
Delver of Secrets
18%
 18%  [ 7 ]
Snapcaster Mage
10%
 10%  [ 4 ]
Ponder
16%
 16%  [ 6 ]
Other
5%
 5%  [ 2 ]
Nothing, format is healthy
48%
 48%  [ 18 ]
Total Votes : 37

Author Message
Ashmatan



Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 116

PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok people. if u werent around b4 when we had this "problem", the reason theres so much delver, is cuz people are playing too much delver!!!!! honestly, i think it's an addiction to winning. To be 100% honest, i have never gone out of the way to put a delver deck together. never. the card is good, but its only GOOD. not great. it would be great if it transformed into a 3/3 flier (which im quite friggin sure wotc worked out in testing). There are so many answers to delver out there and i think people are just too damn lazy and afraid to lose in the meantime to find them and make a competetive deck. I went 5-2 in the master (should have been 6-1, and u know this jud XD lol) with a non-delver, non-RG deck.
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EMA



Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 189

PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really don't get these "zomg I won one game vs delver with my brew" comments.
Nobody is saying delver is unbeatable anyway.
It's just that its existance makes every other deck choice suboptimal, that's the problem.
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Pokemaster



Joined: 16 Sep 2007
Posts: 45

PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great you beat delver and then lose to another deck.
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LuckyDucky



Joined: 14 Jan 2012
Posts: 165

PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What were the deck %s for T2 when Wild Nacatl, Bitterblossom, etc weren't banned?
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AxiomBlurr



Joined: 11 Jul 2010
Posts: 411

PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am quite sure Nacatl didn't get ran in its T2 environment as that scene didn't have fetch lands. Bitter certainly saw heavy play but if I remember correctly 4cc was the stronger deck in bitter's T2 environment.

As for the banning hammer; all changes are welcomed by me, change opens up new options that were not viable previously - but I seriously doubt any of the cards that you mentioned will be banned as none of them are truly format warping - IMO.

The thing about Delver for me is that it is an amazingly designed uncommon or even rare. When I first saw it was common I lost a great deal of faith in the mtg designers.
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Burton911



Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Posts: 172

PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dipiano wrote:
i remember i played a tourney with faeries and the only games i drew bitterblossom i actually lost


thats the awkward part where faeries was more than thoughtseize > Mutavault > Bitterblossom > Sprite > Clique ....
Draw your own conclusions ...

You can also lose if you flip your delver on turn 2, but it does not change the fact that this just shouldnt happen cause blut should not have essentially free 3/2 flyers ....
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pg8



Joined: 27 Feb 2011
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AxiomBlurr wrote:
The thing about Delver for me is that it is an amazingly designed uncommon or even rare. When I first saw it was common I lost a great deal of faith in the mtg designers.


I'm trying to figure out why rarity has anything to do with constructed Magic. Also why you think it's okay for rares to be undercosted beatsticks but commons have to be 2/2 for 2.
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EMA



Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 189

PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pg8 wrote:

I'm trying to figure out why rarity has anything to do with constructed Magic. Also why you think it's okay for rares to be undercosted beatsticks but commons have to be 2/2 for 2.


+1
Rarity just affects limited and the secondary market. It's ok as a common since delver wasn't good at all in isd-isd-dka.
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AxiomBlurr



Joined: 11 Jul 2010
Posts: 411

PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pg8 wrote:
AxiomBlurr wrote:
The thing about Delver for me is that it is an amazingly designed uncommon or even rare. When I first saw it was common I lost a great deal of faith in the mtg designers.


I'm trying to figure out why rarity has anything to dDelver easily croaso with constructed Magic. Also why you think it's okay for rares to be undercosted beatsticks but commons have to be 2/2 for 2.


Rarity has nothing to do with constructed, nor did I say it did- rarity is just a design parameter-there are fuzzy limits on the power level a common can have-I think Delver easily surpasses those limits-this was my point.
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Burton911



Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Posts: 172

PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AxiomBlurr wrote:
pg8 wrote:
AxiomBlurr wrote:
The thing about Delver for me is that it is an amazingly designed uncommon or even rare. When I first saw it was common I lost a great deal of faith in the mtg designers.


I'm trying to figure out why rarity has anything to dDelver easily croaso with constructed Magic. Also why you think it's okay for rares to be undercosted beatsticks but commons have to be 2/2 for 2.


Rarity has nothing to do with constructed, nor did I say it did- rarity is just a design parameter-there are fuzzy limits on the power level a common can have-I think Delver easily surpasses those limits-this was my point.


If you take that train of thought and push it a little further you see that they simply underestimated the power of delver.

@EMA: Delver was an ok card in Limited, but it is obviously a lot harder to build a dedicated deck. Mostly it shone in some combination of U R and B. Especially in Triple ISD where you could get up to 4 Delvers sometimes.
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Tao



Joined: 22 Dec 2007
Posts: 864

PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EMA wrote:
pg8 wrote:

I'm trying to figure out why rarity has anything to do with constructed Magic. Also why you think it's okay for rares to be undercosted beatsticks but commons have to be 2/2 for 2.


+1
Rarity just affects limited and the secondary market. It's ok as a common since delver wasn't good at all in isd-isd-dka.
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tchiseen



Joined: 08 Mar 2010
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EMA wrote:
It's just that its existance makes every other deck choice suboptimal, that's the problem.


This. Brew a sweet deck? Nice. Got decent/good matchups? Okay. Metagamed correctly? Check. Got some sweet tech?


Cool story.


Have fun playing against a Delver deck that is at least 50/50 against you, and if piloted by a decent player, probably at least 60/40.
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NearSideMoon



Joined: 29 Mar 2012
Posts: 65

PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

See, that's the thing. You still 'Have Fun' when playing against Delver. They don't do anything overly oppressive or terribly broken or unbelievably unfair if your deck is reasonably functional. Built properly, Delver will not be completely advantaged over your deck. This will mean games will be interactive, difficult affairs, that make you think and calculate and play your best Magic.

It still leads to fun games, which is what is the most important. It's not like Caw-Blade where nothing could beat it, or Affinity, or Academy, or Necro, where you have to play these decks and have to play the mirror match, which creates unfun environments.

Cards are banned, and as far as I know have always been banned, because they create unfun playing environments. Not because they are overpowered. Bloodbraid Elf and Tarmogoyf and Bitterblossom and Dark Confidant are all very powerful cards, which dominated their respective formats, but they were not banned because they did not force tournament attendance down like Affinity or Caw-Blade. That's the only consideration when it comes to banning cards; whether or not they encourage an unfun game. And Delver does not do that.

It has no reason to be near the banned list.
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