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Banhammer Time!


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Reply to topic    Magic-League.com Forum Index -> Standard (T2) Decks

What do you think WOTC will ban in standard in the next announcement?
Delver of Secrets
18%
 18%  [ 7 ]
Snapcaster Mage
10%
 10%  [ 4 ]
Ponder
16%
 16%  [ 6 ]
Other
5%
 5%  [ 2 ]
Nothing, format is healthy
48%
 48%  [ 18 ]
Total Votes : 37

Author Message
EMA



Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 189

PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:22 am    Post subject: Banhammer Time! Reply with quote

Vote and discuss!
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Kazhw



Joined: 09 Oct 2010
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:02 am    Post subject: Re: Banhammer Time! Reply with quote

why ban??? pick good decks !!!
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CChildress



Joined: 16 Feb 2012
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This T2 format is fine.
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EMA



Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 189

PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A format where there is one best deck that has no bad matchups, and no reason to be playing something different in a competitive event is fine?

I think AVR screwed the whole rock-paper-scissor thing pretty hard, I wish they'd actually playtest the cards before printing them.
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niknight



Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 261

PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EMA wrote:
A format where there is one best deck that has no bad matchups, and no reason to be playing something different in a competitive event is fine?

I think AVR screwed the whole rock-paper-scissor thing pretty hard, I wish they'd actually playtest the cards before printing them.



Your comments are exactly what is wrong with competitive Magic. I'll address some of them:

1. There will always be one best deck in a format, that's usually the definition of a metagame.

2. It's not that Delver has no bad matchups... it's that people haven't done the work necessary to figure out how to beat it. This is how a metagame works! A team builds a new deck (or variant of an existing one) that exploits some major weakness in the meta, and it dominates for a few weeks as people frantically figure out its weaknesses. Delver will be solved IF people want to put in the work.

3. Wizards does playtest new sets as they come out! They have an entire Future Future League dedicated to such. The problem is that they test a year and a half ahead of the format, and they have a very small window in which to get it right. The only reason you complain is that you never see the 99.9% of "broken" things they fix... you only see the occasional thing they miss.

4. WotC has already said that they are fine with a one deck format, if people enjoy playing that format. They determine this by tournament attendance. The only two times in recent memory that tournament attendance dropped because of a one deck format were Caw Blade and Ravager. Cards got banned b/c of this. People were fine with Fae, Jund, Reveilark as one deck formats, so nothing happened.

Edit: I probably should explain my first sentence. The reason why it's wrong is that you are perpetuating the negative stereotype that got Mystical Tutor banned. Instead of actually trying to man up and beat the best deck, people just start whining about it until WotC bans cards.
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Pokemaster



Joined: 16 Sep 2007
Posts: 45

PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find playing against Delver really annoying. 1 mana for a 3/2 or a 3 mana for 2/2 hexproof that attacks for 6. They can drop a delver and then play the role of a control.
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Strid3r



Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 295

PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ban all blue cards and islands! And all cards that have "island" or "blue" in its text box!
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EMA



Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 189

PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Niknight

Quote:
1. There will always be one best deck in a format, that's usually the definition of a metagame.


This isn't entirely true.
There is going to be "one best strategy at a given time, until people adapt to that strategy".
When there is one clear best, unexploitable strategy, everyone will just play that.
When a format reaches that point, it's bad for the players (unfun) and bad for wotc (less ppl having fun, less ppl playing events, less money for them).
If ppl enjoys the one deck format then, fine then.
I don't, and I think there's nothing wrong in pointing it out.

Quote:
It's not that Delver has no bad matchups...


It doesn't, it's always been like this when we had good blue versatile aggro/control decks in standard.
This isn't the main issue, since you don't have bad matchups, but you don't have incredibily favorable ones either, which is fine.
You have a "best" deck that defines the format and coinflips or better most matches, there's nothing wrong with it.
BUT in the Jund and Fae days you still had the 5 archetypes going on, and you still could justify bringing one of those to an event based on meta prediction, as long as you could at least be 50/50 with the best deck.

The problem here is that there is no incentive in playing something different. Do you see the difference?
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Strid3r



Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 295

PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But delver isn't so good right? I thought that the best deck is Ramp.

It is not fun to play delver or to play against it imo, that is why they should nerf delver.
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EMA



Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 189

PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The reason why it's wrong is that you are perpetuating the negative stereotype that got Mystical Tutor banned. Instead of actually trying to man up and beat the best deck, people just start whining about it until WotC bans cards.


On this you're right, I didn't want to whine at all, tho I admit my post sounded like a whine.
I know they playtest new cards and they do a good job for the most part, I was just being dramatic^^, and i agree that many ppl tend to just ovverreact and whine without actively trying to come out with new ideas.
However my goal in this 3d is just to get a feeling on what the competitive community thinks about the current ptq format, since I personally think it's too unbalanced (and apparently many others, even pros, do).
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LuckyDucky



Joined: 14 Jan 2012
Posts: 165

PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Delver wins in legacy. Delver wins in Modern. Delver wins in Standard.


Problem? Nah...
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Acid_Christ



Joined: 28 Aug 2004
Posts: 799

PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think anything should be banned. Players just need to learn how to play correct. Otherwise all the planeswalkers should be banned.
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judas_bcn



Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LuckyDucky wrote:
Delver wins in legacy. Delver wins in Modern. Delver wins in Standard.


Problem? Nah...


i think that's definitely the problem. you play legacy, u see delver, u play modern, u see delver, u play standard, u see delver, u eat soup, u see delver, u go to the bath, u see delver, u're partying, u see delver... delver's everywhere just as stoneforge was. besides, i think the biggest mistake was making delver blue and not red, which looks as its real color.
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LuckyDucky



Joined: 14 Jan 2012
Posts: 165

PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

judas_bcn wrote:
LuckyDucky wrote:
Delver wins in legacy. Delver wins in Modern. Delver wins in Standard.


Problem? Nah...


i think that's definitely the problem. you play legacy, u see delver, u play modern, u see delver, u play standard, u see delver, u eat soup, u see delver, u go to the bath, u see delver, u're partying, u see delver... delver's everywhere just as stoneforge was. besides, i think the biggest mistake was making delver blue and not red, which looks as its real color.


There already is a good, less reliable version in red (reckless waif). The problem with delver is once it transforms, it stays a 3/2 flyer for-ev-er.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-Q7b-vHY3Q
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Burton911



Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Posts: 172

PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

niknight wrote:
]2. It's not that Delver has no bad matchups... it's that people haven't done the work necessary to figure out how to beat it. This is how a metagame works! A team builds a new deck (or variant of an existing one) that exploits some major weakness in the meta, and it dominates for a few weeks as people frantically figure out its weaknesses. Delver will be solved IF people want to put in the work.


Delver is around for ~8 months now, and has showen that it can easialy adopt to new questions from other decks, like faeries did back then.

The Problem ist just that flying Wild Natcals in blue are wrong. Its like playing against faeries again were you knew it doesnt matter what you do it will be wrong since they can just handle it. Like faeries the deck is not too good but its really annoying to play against it.

I guess we will see somthing like the stag in M10 but dedicated to delver in M13, altough we already got Cavern which lead to the GR uprising.
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