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What the crap, Wizards?


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JacobMatthew



Joined: 16 Dec 2009
Posts: 131

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thedarkness wrote:
NearSideMoon wrote:
thedarkness wrote:
Honestly though, I don't get the hate on Dredge. Without the pre-Mirrodin accelerants, it's just..not that strong. o_o


Wizards policy is better safe than sorry. I think that's why they banned Ancestral Visions.

But you could conceivably make colorless Dredge (just choose to draw and discard on turn 1) or using Faithless Looting.

Well, either that or Wizards was pressured by the DCI to make sure Dredge never returns. Nobody really has fun playing against Dredge (unless you're hand is Leyline, Crypt, Force, Force. Yeah...)=w=.
Actually, I'm pretty sure they banned Ancestral Visions because it was the best 1-drop for Faeries, and what better way to hose Faeries than banning its engine AND its ability to refill its hand on turn 4?


cascading into ancestral is degenerate
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Selkie



Joined: 22 Jul 2011
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What joe said: it wasn't because of Fae, it was because of BBE -> visions.
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Pushover



Joined: 15 Nov 2008
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ancestral Vision - Eh, pretty much agree, doesn't need a ban
Bitterblossom - Fae gets very dominant when spellstutter sprite reads counter target spell, we would be back to fae standard
Blazing Shoal - the combo deck that was off of this was effectively not playing magic. You just either drew well, or you didn't.
Cloudpost - Post decks were showing themselves to be way too strong, Tron is basically everything Post was except slightly worse.
Green Sun's Zenith - Makes green based decks way too consistant
Mental Misstep - Same logic as the ban in legacy
Ponder - Kind of agree, but Wizards wanted to stop a lot of just 2 card combos from working consistently.
Preordain - Probably the strongest cantrip in modern, provides too much digging power, would be automatic 4x in almost every blue deck
Punishing Fire - PFire Grove dominated modern for way too long
Rite of Flame - Made most storm decks go way too fast.
Sensei's Divining Top - I would have just banned counterbalance.
Wild Nacatl - was shutting down the format since 1 mana 3 power was just a bit too strong, so one of the only decks in the format was Zoo.
Dread Return - Do you enjoy playing magic? I do.
Golgari Grave-Troll - See above
Stoneforge Mystic - Should be pretty obvious how much play it would see :3
Sword of the Meek - Apparently wizards does not like Thopter-Sword. I can see why, control with thoptersword is a decent option.

The thing about dredge isn't necessarily about the speed. Its about how the deck does not interact with the rest of the format, and players end up having to devote 4ish slots of their SB to beat a certain deck.
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thedarkness



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 580

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JacobMatthew wrote:
thedarkness wrote:
NearSideMoon wrote:
thedarkness wrote:
Honestly though, I don't get the hate on Dredge. Without the pre-Mirrodin accelerants, it's just..not that strong. o_o


Wizards policy is better safe than sorry. I think that's why they banned Ancestral Visions.

But you could conceivably make colorless Dredge (just choose to draw and discard on turn 1) or using Faithless Looting.

Well, either that or Wizards was pressured by the DCI to make sure Dredge never returns. Nobody really has fun playing against Dredge (unless you're hand is Leyline, Crypt, Force, Force. Yeah...)=w=.
Actually, I'm pretty sure they banned Ancestral Visions because it was the best 1-drop for Faeries, and what better way to hose Faeries than banning its engine AND its ability to refill its hand on turn 4?


cascading into ancestral is degenerate
So then banning Ancestral Visions hosed one deck's early game and potentially inconvenienced another deck. Though I don't think I've ever seen anything that ran Bloodbraid Elf run Ancestral Visions, and I don't think I've seen a deck that ran much more Cascade than those.

The only reason I can see to ban Ancestral Visions is that it made blue too strong. That seems like a terrible reason to ban something, but in a format slower than Vintage, it might as well have been Ancestral Recall, and they definitely banned Recall in everything ever.

I guess at the end of the day, 1 mana for 3 cards is just too strong as long as you get the cards when they matter. Ancestral Visions does that.
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darkwizard42
Level 2 Judge


Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BBE into Ancestral Visions was a popular play with Jace the Mind Sculptor out. It was part of a powerful RUG deck that ran cryptic command, Jace, BBE, lotus cobra, PFire, and other traditional "good stuff"
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thedarkness



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 580

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

darkwizard42 wrote:
BBE into Ancestral Visions was a popular play with Jace the Mind Sculptor out. It was part of a powerful RUG deck that ran cryptic command, Jace, BBE, lotus cobra, PFire, and other traditional "good stuff"
HAHAHAHA. Sounds like that deck kinda sucks now, huh? Razz

Edit: also, wtf is BBE? Act like I missed the entire format and don't follow your miscellaneous acronyms, plox. x.x
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kumagmd



Joined: 15 Feb 2009
Posts: 307

PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bloodbraid Elf.
2RG
Creature - Uncommon
Cascade
Haste
3/2

(from what I recall).
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thedarkness



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 580

PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kumagmd wrote:
Bloodbraid Elf.
2RG
Creature - Uncommon
Cascade
Haste
3/2

(from what I recall).
I'm familiar with Bloodbraid Elf, just not the acronym. But thanks.
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Lostwanderer



Joined: 24 Jun 2010
Posts: 66

PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To avoid addmitting changing extended was a terrible idea they made a new format trying to avoid it resembling old modern
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pantheismftw



Joined: 31 Oct 2011
Posts: 66

PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

struikje totally 100% nailed it, I swear to god you must be in my head man because I think I said those exact words in my head after I read the OP. I disagree so stronly that there should be another degenerate format with 3-4 dominant decks all pretty much playing rock paper skizzors.

Modern right now is the most healthy format I have ever seen in all my life and people can't even handle it. What I got from your rant was "What do you mean there are 130 tir-one decks in modern? I want 5! How else will I choose what to netdeck??!!??"

I was going to say this and then type word for word what struikje said and explain why things are how they are, so I will just repeat him to make sure everyone understands why the banlist in modern is the way it is.

"yes there's affinity, it can be good.

Wizards banned alot of those cards because they didn't want the decks that dominated standard/extended (Stonefoge/dredge cards/sword of the meek/valakut/bitterblossom, to be all over modern again, they wanted a new format (and succeeded). Top is banned because of countertop, and it made lots of matches go to time.

Mistep is just because it was a mistake for them to print it. They also don't want any degenerate combo decks that can win on turn 3, and after protour Philly, it was obvious that rite of flame was the best ritual, and ponder/preordain helped both the storm deck as it did splinter twin, 2 of the best decks at the time. Blazing shoal was a turn 2 win often, as you can pitch a progenitus to pump your attacking inkmoth nexus. The 12 Post deck was with cloudpost waaay to strong, so they banned it aswell.

Green sun's zenith was in the bigger zoo decks both a llanowar elve as it got you your dryad arbor turn 1, a threat (goyf/knight ot reliquary) later in the game, a tutor for pridemage/gaddock teeg, which you could play 1 ofs. It was a toolbox to big for modern, not to mention the redundancy in melira pod.

After those bans, both zoo with nacatl and punishing fire made it impossible for you to play any different aggro deck. In todays modern, you still got combo, (splinter twin, melira pod), aggro (mostly boros, affinity (blue/red), zoo), ramp (RG Breach Tron), control (UW Tron), Burn, ....

The format is very open, no tactic is incredibly overpowered, and the format doesn't require you to play either faerie or anti faerie."

The banlist seems perfect and borderline genius to me. Every deck that has been a good deck in standard or block since 8th edition has all the tools it needs to win it big. This is how magic should be. Modern feels like two beings of godlike creation having a chaotic battle of wits and chance, usually formats feel at least somewhat but usually a lot like slow motion rock-paper-scissors.
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