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Decks and Forum Rules


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Reply to topic    Magic-League.com Forum Index -> General Magic-League Issues
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darkwizard42
Level 2 Judge


Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As an active judge on both IRC and hopefully enough on the forums I can see the case for relaxing the rules on posts.

Engrishskill puts a lot of time into what he does and if you give him some constructive comments I think he would be more than willing to help out and do whats best for the league.

As staff thats what we are hear to do.

In conclusion, less flaming, and just send Engrishskill a message if you feel he is too harsh. Enough messages and the users will see a change.
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moscowdemon
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Posts: 297

PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@xjudicatorx
I was meaning speak to an admin on IRC Razz

@judas_bcn
I understand that, but it still is certainly true that the post provided no effort to explain. I do agree the reply and lock was likely too harsh, but I think both are at fault in the end.

imo, slightly relaxing rules on posts, but still posting them in an easy to see place would be nice, but I still EXPECT explanation for a decklist rather than it just plopped down.
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Weedmonkey



Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 324

PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So people are aware of the situation, there are a number of points to consider:

1. Engrishskill was promoted to moderator for a lot of hard work done on the forums. In particular, he has done much to clean up the forums and keep them from being the absolute mess they once were.

2. Depending on the situation, any issue with the forums and how they're set up can fall under the domain of Flippi (HR Director), eEnder (Conduct Director) or niknight (Policy Director). I've even been messaged myself because a user thought I was in charge of anything website-based. This spreading of responsibility combined with the use of moderators means coordination is needed to keep things moving.

3. To the best of my knowledge, the rules are not that different to MTGSalvation, but I could be wrong (although for the record, I have never modded on MTGSalvation, but have on similar MTG fora).

What will likely be the best solution going forward is to look at the rules/style guides developed for the forums, see where they can be improved, and go from there. Smile
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Pokemaster



Joined: 16 Sep 2007
Posts: 45

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There should a sticky topic, called rules or "before you create a topic" to guide new players.
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GreenBear



Joined: 27 Jul 2010
Posts: 898

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what I've seen, the moderation has improved things, it really does benefit people to explain why they have included cards etc. and getting used to thinking in a logical manner is a useful skill that is needed in far more situations than just magic. Multiple times I have seen requests for more information and then no response from the author, they were given a chance they did not take it and now it seems a lot of these people have an axe to grind.

Another thing to keep in mind a wise saying a lot of the best advice your going to get in your life, your not going to like. If your smart you'll be able to take it like a man, learn from it and put your pride behind you. Putting advice people are not going to want to hear in a tactful manner is difficult as if you do not you can end up in all sorts of ridiculous arguments. Engrishskill does a better job than most at this particularly considering i think some of the posters are quite young (if not i really feel for them) as the way they react to criticism is often childish.

Frankly a lot of the time I will not bother giving advice on threads i could help people on, either because i think the deck shows no promise or the person has come across as a moron or put no effort into his post so why should I?

Seriously how can you expect people to help you when you've posted a 40 card list not typed out properly with no explanations and not bothered posting a mana base a sideboard anything. But again with these lists i think most of them are posted by kids and they seem to attract interest from other kids, so its good to let them discuss stuff but I think the older members should be guiding them as to how to approach deck building, ie why are you including this. I'm always harping on about curve and mana bases when i do comment, as they are the 2 most important things in magic and the rules set in place help create a better learning environment and would greatly benefit many of the people complaining about them if they paid more heed to them.

You also need to consider. It looks terrible on the image of the league also when people are posting decks splashing for vexing devil in a tempo deck, with poor or no explanation. Any decent player if he came was thinking about joining the league clicked the thread and saw it would most likely think to himself maybe not then. Whats more depressing is how these threads often generate more discussion then when people have taken the time to develop their thoughts. I enjoy discussing magic so whenever i see anyone on the league who can discuss stuff in a good manner it always makes me happy.

If you ask me the rules should be made stricter in terms of quality of content. Though I agree Engrish loves Ux control a little 2 much but that's personal taste.
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judas_bcn



Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@moscowdemon that's exactly what i was saying. no matter if it was done with or without effort, moderators are here to judge that, that's not my point. but being rude and don't "provide a better learning environment", as it is said in the rules, is as faulty as what that member did with his post, if not more considering it comes from a staff member who should be providing example. and this is not the first time this happens.
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GunsAndDope



Joined: 12 Jul 2011
Posts: 261

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps then we should form a volunteer group who checks the forums for noobs posting bad decklists, and instead of moderators locking the forum, we take it upon ourselves to educate the new-friends about card choices and how the game works in general.

Kind of a volunteer first-line to prevent the need for locking threads.
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GreenBear



Joined: 27 Jul 2010
Posts: 898

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay I've just done a review of what has been said in the forums to get my facts straight here. All i can say is i honestly can not believe you are attacking this man. His posts are always constructive and insightful if not always right and hes clearly trying to help the community.

Saying this is bad, or I would not play this is not rude. That's called constructive criticism use to learn it as the useful tool it is and you will go far. Continue to think anyone who thinks anything slightly different to you is an idiot and act like a total meat head and chances are you will get no where.

I'm going to repeat this piece of wisdom again - much of the best advice your going to get in life you will not like. Anyone can tell you what your doing right, this is great blah blah, it might be nice to hear but it does not help you. For example back in my younger years on this very site i got into an argument with someone who was quite rude to me and in response I was quite rude back to him. Both of us were right on certain things and wrong on others. However I was able to take what he said swallow my pride and cut a certain card from a deck and add a different card. I then top 2ed a trial with the new version of the deck. And later top 4ed a masters. I never thanked the guy for it, as he spoke to me in such a rude manner. But It was good advice and I would not have been able to get 2nd or top 4 that masters if he had not commented.

So one thing to keep in mind before posting is how you are speaking to the other person would you like to be spoke to like that. You really do have to be tactful when criticizing people, well you do not but your much more likely to get a thankyou or a helpful response back if you do. Things easily get misconstrued, even when people are being polite when your criticizing what someone else has done.

So many people do not get this idea, a friend of mine recently who was writing her dissertation was like, I do not like my tutor all she does is criticise me change this change that. I was like I wish my tutor did that for the record my tutor looked at my work once that's it. The point is the papers not going to get any better by telling her its great even if it is great, only by criticizing what has been written will it get better.

Frankly from what I have read it is clear that the people criticizing Engrish have one been far ruder to him than he has to them. He's not calling you name's insulting your intelligence, suggesting you listen to justin beiber, he's giving advice with the aim of helping you. Honestly I couldn't do it with some of you I'd lose my temper and bite back but he is not doing that.
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judas_bcn



Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@manfredbyron i didn't think your words were headed towards me, but with your last post i do think it now. to be honest, i thank you for saying what you want to say so politely. i don't really matter anyone correcting me even if i don't agree or don't like his or her ideas, healthy discussions are welcomed always about anything, as long as he/she is polite and shows to me the same respect he/she wants to be shown, as you did. but you're not the one to tell me what i think is rude and what not. and i won't be saying anymore about this 'cause it really tires me. i just wanted polite moderators who explain things when doing their jobs, but it seems like people do not want to understand me and believe this is a personal crusade, while nothing further from that.
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GreenBear



Joined: 27 Jul 2010
Posts: 898

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

judas_bcn wrote:
@manfredbyron i didn't think your words were headed towards me, but with your last post i do think it now. to be honest, i thank you for saying what you want to say so politely. i don't really matter anyone correcting me even if i don't agree or don't like his or her ideas, healthy discussions are welcomed always about anything, as long as he/she is polite and shows to me the same respect he/she wants to be shown, as you did. but you're not the one to tell me what i think is rude and what not. and i won't be saying anymore about this 'cause it really tires me. i just wanted polite moderators who explain things when doing their jobs, but it seems like people do not want to understand me and believe this is a personal crusade, while nothing further from that.


My words were not aimed at anyone in general. Before writing this post i took a browse of the constructed forums looking for posts made by engrish to see what the fuss was about. I would recommend you do the same, I can not see anything but useful advice from engrish.
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Farseer
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 335

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

moscowdemon wrote:
imo, slightly relaxing rules on posts, but still posting them in an easy to see place would be nice, but I still EXPECT explanation for a decklist rather than it just plopped down.


Do you want to change this then?
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Zeph



Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 100

PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 10:07 pm    Post subject: Some possible POV that could lead to solutions Reply with quote

1. It's necessary a sticky with FAQ about how and what to post or -in any case- the basic guidelines to do it.

2. Moderators shouldn't criticize or close a flawed thread to start with, especially when created by a new member. They should explain how to do it correctly (if you have a sticky as indicated in entry 1 you could only redirect new member there in case you don't have time to explain it). If the user is stubborn and continues spamming then just lock it.

Closing a thread only because of one mistake discourages new members and creates a bad atmosphere.

If personal grudges against moderators are involved or not in the criticism about their job this is not important. As a moderator you should worry about making possible for community to be a nice place for everyone. By doing this even people who hold grudges against you will not have any argument against your job.

For me the problem is not a person -in this case Engrish- but the way the job is done. It's as simple as taking distance from situation -from rules if necessary- and see real solutions that attack the causes and not the symptoms of problem.


Last edited by Zeph on Tue May 29, 2012 7:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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derflippi
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 19 Mar 2005
Posts: 1402
Location: Weiterstad

PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I stand completely behind engrishskill and believe he's one of the best moderators magic-league forums ever had. -

Interesting though that I only saw this post coincidently, so noone approached me, seems like those complaining are just making public fuss about it. Bored?
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Zeph



Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 100

PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CMA-Flippi wrote:
I stand completely behind engrishskill and believe he's one of the best moderators magic-league forums ever had. -

Interesting though that I only saw this post coincidently, so noone approached me, seems like those complaining are just making public fuss about it. Bored?


The part in italics is the kind of reply a person with authority shouldn't give. The part in bold is even worst and totally uncalled-for. The first part is perfect example of authority with good words.

Authority is not the chance to impose your will or to make others doing what you think is correct, it's also responsability. A judge, a moderator, etc, should answer in a very objective way and without suppositions, personal opinions about other members or personal attacks.

The problem is not as much what we say but rather the way we say it. And the consequence is not negative for community or members, but for yourselves, since you lose respect and authority when you abuse of it, or when the way you talk makes other people think you do it.

For example you -Flippi- should have answered indicating people are not using the right or regular channel and not insinuating irrelevant things with little or no evidence. Furthermore, even if you have evidence of them, as a guy with authority you should avoid addressing people and start adressing what matters: the issues. If you do this, members will not have excuses to do the same, and if they do it, you will be able to apply the appropriate disciplinary measures without being considered unfair.

IMHO this is the most common failure in M-L and this is why most people have this perception about the guys in charge. I don't know if you really like to abuse power (in the last times I've been playing here I've noticed a better attitude from judges and moderators) but you still look like you do.
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