Type 2 UWr Miracles Do Happen

ishocrone · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 112

So after seeing the release event I decided to go type 2 with the winners decklist this is what ive come up so far and has done fairly well in testing.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
10 [CST] Plains (2)
3 [ST] Island (3)
4 [SOM] Seachrome Coast
4 [M12] Glacial Fortress
4 [ISD] Sulfur Falls
1 [ISD] Shimmering Grotto

// Spells
2 [AVR] Devastation Tide
4 [AVR] Temporal Mastery
4 [AVR] Entreat the Angels
4 [AVR] Terminus
4 [TSP] Think Twice
4 [M10] Ponder
1 [AVR] Divine Deflection
3 [AVR] Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1 [NPH] Batterskull
2 [M12] Oblivion Ring
3 [MPR] Day of Judgment
3 [M12] Gideon Jura

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [M12] Negate
SB: 2 [NPH] Karn Liberated
SB: 3 [NPH] Gut Shot
SB: 2 [SOM] Revoke Existence
SB: 2 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 3 [AVR] Pillar of Flame

Cards that im iffy about in the md

Devastating tide since im running essentially 7 wraths idk if this is needed and it bounces back my planeswalkers which hurts me I was thinking of adding 2 more kill conditions or 2 negates/Mana leaks. Also the Think twice are nice but i find myself having hard time abusing there full potential you'll feel the gist of things if you playtest this list.

The sb
so im running 3x gut shot and 3x pillar probally gonna switch a shot for a pillar to make it 4x pillar 2x shot

How the deck works..............

You sit and sweep the board multiple times of any creature threats and win with gideon or batterskull, Tamiyo is awesome and can make your opponent just quit if u get his final ability resolved.
The miracle cards Terminus and temporal mastery are great early or late game turn 1 ponder into a turn 3 temporal is a great start as well.

Deck mu's

Delver based decks are a hard mu depending on who wins the dice roll ive added red to the deck to help that and also revoked Revoke Existence.

Control decks are a hard mu but i find it easy after i side in karn and negates since counterspells are usually not in the control decks arsenal anymore i have to worry about them killing my only win conditions hence forth im thinking of adding 2 more kill conditions md instead of the tides.

RG aggro is fun mu usually you have the upper hand with all the board sweepers and 3x gideons.

Will post more about this deck and mu's and what to side in and out later busy atm and would like to see this stay in the standard forums instead of being moved to casual ty and let me know what you think.

Engrishskill · Joined: 15 Jan 2007 Posts: 1152

Is that red splash really worthwhile? Control decks already lose to missing land drops or too many CiPT lands a ridiculous amount, so a red splash for pillars seems a bit underwhelming.

Delver decks are continuing to make solid finishes in mtgo dailies despite numerous other decks having no problems with killing early delvers, so if you are trying to solve the delver issue with gut shots and pillars, you may want to look into other options.

If it is working for you, it's working for you, but I really don't see it. While watching the coverage and matches, I noticed that if mana leak was in IBC, Alex's miracle control wouldn't have enjoyed the level of success that it did.

You said that your testing results have been encouraging- what does that entail? Are you playing against random people on mws games, are you testing with team mates or what?

The casual section is for people who are not concerned with performing as well as possible against optimal decks that are being played by capable opponents. If you want to tune this deck to win envelopes, you may end up having to ditch the red splash or take better advantage of it with cards, like whipflare.

ishocrone · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 112

the splash for red also ensures that i kill anything with undying well almost anything Smile

. It doesn't hurt my mana base severely and if you have any sugs on a solution to counter delver based decks that fit UW then let me know other wise i am gonna have to splash for R or Black i think black will probally be the better fit just haven't had time to make a shell for it like i said before im busy :p. Testing with team mates mws M-l matches all over I guess. Whip flare does clear the board but its just another wrath imo O.o which i have no problem so like i said up top it was splashed for undying. I'd like for you to post a list that u think would be optimal.

JacobMatthew · Joined: 16 Dec 2009 Posts: 126

Needs sphere of the suns + bonfire.

JacobMatthew · Joined: 16 Dec 2009 Posts: 126

what are you doing on turn 2? needs 4x sphere. turn 4 gideon or tamiyo , or being able to turn 4 or 5 terminus also seems good. You can get to 7cmc faster if you end up with 2 entreats in your hand, and Broodmate Dragon was a devastating card at 6cmc, so...

Stucco · Joined: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 901

This is what your deck is telling me:

Turn 1: 4 Cards (Ponders)
Turn 2: 0 Cards (Since Think Twice is just an enabler on your opponents turn .)
Turn 3: 2 Cards ; or pray to your magic gods to draw a helpful miracle card.
Turn 4: Hope the game is not out of reach.

That's extremely risky. I know putting 4 of each miracle card is the popular route since it improves your chances of drawing one off the top, but I disagree. As of right now, you are running 24 cards with cmc 5 or higher. Essentially, you are sacrificing playable cards in hand for the luck of the draw. I don't know about you, but I'm a horribly unlucky person. Entreat the Angels starts being good mid-game, why run 4?

Creatures:
3x Gideon's Lawkeeper
2x Wurmcoil Engine

Spells:
4x Ponder
4x Mana Leak
3x Think Twice
3x Oblivion Ring
3x Lingering Souls
2x Day of Judgement
2x Tamiyo
3x Entreat the Angels
3x Terminus
3x Temporal Mastery

Mana:
3x Ghost Quarter
4x Seachrome Cost
1x Darkslick Shores
3x Glacial Fortress
3x Isolated Chapel
2x Evolving Wilds
5x Plains
4x Island
1x Swamp

SB:
4x Nihil Spellbomb (Frites is popular here and this cantrips during an opponents turn)
2x Second Guess
4x Ratchet Bomb
4x Vaporize
1x Terminus

I know the mana is sketchy. However, my main deck doesn't give me dead hands and force me into miracle-mode. Miracles are best when they compliment a control strategy, not when they are your control strategy.
This deck is no where near completed (compleated?). For Example: I'm in the middle of testing Lawkeeper to help with the early game while still being applicable later on. I may try Looter to chump block or pull miracles during my opponents turn, but early stabilization is the hardest aspect of the deck.
As you know, once you resolve an Entreat the Angels, you should win next turn (except when you're looking at an opposing wrath effect, which is unlikely right now). I'd recommend gearing your deck to stall and control more effectively and have some semblance of a curve.

Engrishskill · Joined: 15 Jan 2007 Posts: 1152

As far as delver goes, cards will only get someone so far. Contrary to popular belief, delver is not an easy deck to pilot properly. The guys who rely on facerolls are not the ones who are getting 4-0 in dailies.

Having a consistant mana base is far more important than a way to kill a card that good delver players use as a lightning rod(delver). I play uw delver and I can guarantee that I seldom do more than six damage with my delvers, if that and my opponents are generally better off dealing with my equipment and/or GoSTs. Mental misstep is a card that delver players should be running some quantity of and apostle's blessing/mutagenic growth are also cards that just about every delver player should be running in a hostile field.

Curse of Death's Hold is still ridiculous against delver, so you should be running black- not red, in my opinion.

Also, I'm not sold on miracles in a format where there are mana leaks and negates being run. I think miracles are sweet, but Alex's performance at the Pro Tour would have been different if there was two mana counters in IBC.

I am the only person who plays delver at my shop and other people who have brought delver seem to play it loosely, so it's not a match that I have been too focused on. At any rate, here is my uwb deck:

JeZeus · Joined: 05 Sep 2004 Posts: 224

4 Seachrome Coast
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Plains
6 Island
1 Swamp
2 Evolving Wilds

4 Temporal Mastery
4 Terminus
4 Entreat the Angels
2 Vanishment
2 Devastation Tide

4 Think Twice
3 Ponder
2 Thought Scour
1 Dissipate

2 Gideon Jura
3 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
4 Lingering Souls

SB: 3 Timely Reinforcements
SB: 2 Celestial Purge
SB: 2 Negate
SB: 1 Divine Offering
SB: 1 Revoke Existence
SB: 1 Dissipate
SB: 3 Geist of Saint Traft
SB: 2 Snapcaster Mage

If they had access to Lingering Souls in the PT, they would have used it. Since you have it in standard, not using it in a deck that can easily support it is just plain bad.

I'm going out on a limb but if this deck is to work in standard, it needs to be Esper colors.

EMA · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 189

JeZeus · Joined: 05 Sep 2004 Posts: 224

Its not a deck I really play, just a list I whipped up. Should have room for 25land, probably just missed something. More or less to say the deck should run Lingering Souls.

ishocrone · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 112

New list just on paper no testing as of yet let me know and I would like to make it snapcaster mage control but what to take out is the question cuz then im running no planeswalkers which might b the best option but idk also if i run mages and no planeswalkers devastation tide would b nice and have alot of synergy and snapcaster ponder to set up miracles would b nice... idk anyone wanna whip up a uwb snapcaster miracle decklist? what would the win cond b entreat ??? to much hate for tokens sadly atm. Anyways heres the list.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
6 [CST] Plains (2)
3 [ST] Island (3)
4 [SOM] Seachrome Coast
4 [M12] Glacial Fortress
4 [SOM] Darkslick Shores
3 [ISD] Isolated Chapel
1 [ISD] Nephalia Drownyard

// Creatures
2 [MBS] Consecrated Sphinx

// Spells
3 [AVR] Temporal Mastery
3 [AVR] Entreat the Angels
4 [AVR] Terminus
3 [TSP] Think Twice
4 [M10] Ponder
2 [AVR] Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
2 [M12] Oblivion Ring
3 [MPR] Day of Judgment
3 [M12] Gideon Jura
2 [DKA] Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
4 [DKA] Lingering Souls

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [M12] Negate
SB: 1 [NPH] Karn Liberated
SB: 2 [SOM] Revoke Existence
SB: 2 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 [NPH] Dismember
SB: 1 [M12] Mind Rot
SB: 1 [NPH] Despise
SB: 1 [SOM] Memoricide
SB: 1 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [ISD] Sever the Bloodline
SB: 1 [MBS] Go for the Throat

ishocrone · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 112

If i was to go control route since we do see alot of it i might add 3 mana leak 3x snapcaster instead of lingering and sorin but idk ill test this current list post results i think 4x terminus and 4x entreat are the way to go though

ishocrone · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 112

minus 2 plains plus 2 islands to mana base only change

Engrishskill · Joined: 15 Jan 2007 Posts: 1152

Honestly, theory is against miracle control being good in standard any time soon. Alex won several games by having a more consistant deck than his opponents and there were many other reasons that I won't go into because they can be found in the coverage.

In standard, control loses to missed land drops; little owe the variance of miracles. Miracles have a lot of potential, but when it comes down to it, control already has to skate uphill when opposing decks have about two threats for each answer in their deck, plus threat diversity with shroud, hexproof, lands and so on. Answers being removed for timewalks and angel swarms is cool, but getting fished while hoping to draw them isn't.

People still play delver, which means mana leaks. It is likely that leaks or negates being in IBC would have changed how people attacked the metagame at the Pro Tour.

Miracles could end up being a good fit for control at some point, but I doubt that control sucking as of late(in standard) has been for lack of bombs and time walks. Control has been sucking because opposing decks are better at posing threats than control is at answering then either due to unforgiving land drops or threat diversity. Besides Terminus, none of the miracles do much to help control.

ishocrone · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 112

Is your job to shoot down everyones deck idea :9 yes its not tier 1 prolly won't be unless it has that miracle build to it.... and right environment so far in testing however it runs like a uw control build. No the deck doesnt rely on the miracles but more on the planeswalkers and wraths where as the miracles are cheap tricks idk how to explain it but play test the deck i guess other than that sad face very very sad face :p