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Issues with time



 
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Kabelis



Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 105

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:23 pm    Post subject: Issues with time Reply with quote

A lot of games come down to racing. In those cases the player who gets the last turn has a HUGE advantage. The problem with the current rule is that once the last ~1.5min starts, it becomes a crap shoot. There's really no way to prove that someone thought for additional 10 or so seconds when they didn't need to in order to gain the last turn advantage.

Let's say I have a very clear play on my part, attack with my flyer equipped with sword of war and piece while opponent tries to race me with his wurmcoil. Lats minute starts, my whole turn takes ~10s, he thinks for a while, attacks, now there are like 30s left. I take my turn, immediatelly go to attack step, attack with my creature and instantly say 'end my turn', I'm ahead in life totals.

22s left, but opponent doesn't immediately untap and go through the obvious motions, but instead waits additional ~5s on my end step, then untaps and draws a card, additional ~3s in his MP with nothing to play, attacks, gets ahead in the race and thinks additional 5s in MP2, then time gets called.

The problem is that while a player cannot intentionally slow down, they can intentionally speed up and in these last ~30s situations, this lame sub-game starts. It would at least feel more fair if there was an obvious timer, but as it is, players have a vague knowledge of how much time is left which while technically makes it less abusive, also makes it less fair and more random.


Basically it gets really awkward and impossible to prove stalling or even notice the correct time when the time was called unless you're watching the chat while playing (which slows down the gameplay even more).
While it's obviously an issue which can't be completely fixed, I think there should be a clear rule on who gets the last turn once time is called so that players could plan accordingly and not be on a mercy of randomness.

Maybe I'm just paranoid, but the ambiguity of these situations makes me want to rather have game winner decided on a coin-flip..

My suggestion would be to give the last turn to the player on the draw in the final game. It's very marginal, but it would make it so that player on the draw has a harder time "waiting it out" with like 30s left to not give player on the play one more turn, while making it easier for both players to plan their plays.

Not being sure if attacking and getting ahead in the life race in that particular turn (which may or may not be the last) will win you the game or leave the timer at ~10s, forcing you to pass the turn, let opponent untap and win during his extra turn, feels miserable.


Last edited by Kabelis on Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Weedmonkey



Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 324

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without any bearing on the proposition itself, I would like to say that in the cases of slow play vs stalling, judges take into account more than merely the time taken for individual actions.

I am quite interested in hearing what other players think on this however Smile
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magicman85



Joined: 22 Aug 2009
Posts: 555

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think it makes that much of a difference. I guess if you went first, and then you got the 1st 3rd and 5th turns at the end, you would get one more turn than your opponent, but I guess that is the reward you get for winning the coin flip/losing the last match.

At my FNM, most of the games that go down to the 5 turn rule usually end up as a draw anyways.
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Jacois



Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 1201

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could ML create it's own server for games for a trial and just.... shut the whole thing down when time is called? That would be hilarious AND effective.
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Ffancrzy
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 258

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there any reason we don't do the 5 turns then cut to life totals?
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niknight



Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 261

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ffancrzy wrote:
Is there any reason we don't do the 5 turns then cut to life totals?


We tried that back in 2010. It created two major issues:

1. We found it to be rather difficult to enforce. A lot of times, the players either didn't notice (or ignored completely) the fact that time ended a while ago. In addition, there were numerous arguments over whose turn it was when time was actually called.

2. Logistical issues aside, the players of Magic-League were probably the biggest reason we cited the 5 turn rule as a failure. It's a funny thing... we had a large number of people (more than half of the league iirc) asking for this change, THEN after putting it into place, they all kept complaining about how long it made the tournaments run. Much like and IRL event, adding 5 turns to the end of a round will inevitably increase the length of a tournament by about 10 minutes per round. Nobody wanted to spend the extra hour playing a Trial.
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pg8



Joined: 27 Feb 2011
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Issues with time Reply with quote

Kabelis wrote:
My suggestion would be to give the last turn to the player on the draw in the final game.


I think this is an excellent idea.
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Weedmonkey



Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 324

PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting thoughts. My two cents:

The change is worth considering. Whilst the potential abuse of the rules as they currently stand are not in themselves sufficient to warrant this, I can see why people would prefer to know which player will have the last turn of the match.

Whilst my activity on here has decreased of late due to personal reasons, I'll pass this amongst other judges and see how they feel about a potential change Smile.

In the meantime, if anybody else has any input they'd like to give on this change, make it Very Happy
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