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vexing devil


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Joined: 04 Apr 2010
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jacois wrote:
The cards broken.


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pg8



Joined: 27 Feb 2011
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jacois wrote:
The cards broken.


Ban Vexing Devil
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judas_bcn



Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think it's broken at all, but it isn't just so bad as some people want to state. It might have some space as a 2 or 3 of in some deck, specially in standard. Example: delver (in extension blue) relies on unsummoning to deal with creatures (perfect!). Green does not have an effective way to deal with it. Black's the best against it (then just side it out against black as everything bad predicted in this post is going to happen). White has some ways, either o-ring or chumpblocking or wrath effects or even life gain (then, again just side it out if opp has any of this). Red will have incinerate seeing more play. In any case, i don't think it is worth to build a deck around him just as happens with delver, but it is worth of study in some decks as it does what aggro decks want to do: just add some more pressure to the opp.
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Grizzly440



Joined: 21 Feb 2012
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh please don't insult me with your witty comments and tasteless sarcasm! I might be offended by it! And Vexing Devil is good. But i am just typing to see myself talk. And you can always challenge me to a match since you are so insightful and skilled in this game of magical cards. I am no good at it though i assure you. Have a nice day. Oh yeah, and Vexing Devil is good. Bah Bye now.
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GreenBear



Joined: 27 Jul 2010
Posts: 901

PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grizzly440 wrote:
Oh please don't insult me with your witty comments and tasteless sarcasm! I might be offended by it! And Vexing Devil is good. But i am just typing to see myself talk. And you can always challenge me to a match since you are so insightful and skilled in this game of magical cards. I am no good at it though i assure you. Have a nice day. Oh yeah, and Vexing Devil is good. Bah Bye now.


I am retired from magic-league unfortunately, but if its a duel you want a duel you will get, I recommend a joust *slaps with leather glove* and really people play it far to fast and loose with the term good these days. And what do I care if I offend you good sir this is the internet, if you want someone to nurture your self esteem go running to your mummy.
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Grizzly440



Joined: 21 Feb 2012
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ManfredByron wrote:
Grizzly440 wrote:
Oh please don't insult me with your witty comments and tasteless sarcasm! I might be offended by it! And Vexing Devil is good. But i am just typing to see myself talk. And you can always challenge me to a match since you are so insightful and skilled in this game of magical cards. I am no good at it though i assure you. Have a nice day. Oh yeah, and Vexing Devil is good. Bah Bye now.


I am retired from magic-league unfortunately, but if its a duel you want a duel you will get, I recommend a joust *slaps with leather glove* and really people play it far to fast and loose with the term good these days. And what do I care if I offend you good sir this is the internet, if you want someone to nurture your self esteem go running to your mummy.


The whole point is that this is the internet, and the petty sarcasm is truely useless. I am a grown man so i am truely laughing at all of this. And i said he is good, because he is. Everyone is saying no but i guarantee he will be in all decks utilizing red in t2 and alot of mod. My self esteem is quite sufficient to deal with the likes of some magic nerds lol! Especially when my intellect is probably superior. So anytime, let me know and I will unsheathe my sword to spill your wicked blood, in the name of Grizzly!!!! After all, this is just a game, that i think we both love.
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Strid3r



Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 295

PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grizzly440 wrote:
ManfredByron wrote:
Grizzly440 wrote:
Oh please don't insult me with your witty comments and tasteless sarcasm! I might be offended by it! And Vexing Devil is good. But i am just typing to see myself talk. And you can always challenge me to a match since you are so insightful and skilled in this game of magical cards. I am no good at it though i assure you. Have a nice day. Oh yeah, and Vexing Devil is good. Bah Bye now.


I am retired from magic-league unfortunately, but if its a duel you want a duel you will get, I recommend a joust *slaps with leather glove* and really people play it far to fast and loose with the term good these days. And what do I care if I offend you good sir this is the internet, if you want someone to nurture your self esteem go running to your mummy.


The whole point is that this is the internet, and the petty sarcasm is truely useless. I am a grown man so i am truely laughing at all of this. And i said he is good, because he is. Everyone is saying no but i guarantee he will be in all decks utilizing red in t2 and alot of mod. My self esteem is quite sufficient to deal with the likes of some magic nerds lol! Especially when my intellect is probably superior. So anytime, let me know and I will unsheathe my sword to spill your wicked blood, in the name of Grizzly!!!! After all, this is just a game, that i think we both love.


Yea, i often feel this way too ^^.
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Top8eR



Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can already see a zoo player casting ranger of eos for 2 of these and just ruining my day.
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GreenBear



Joined: 27 Jul 2010
Posts: 901

PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grizzly440 wrote:
ManfredByron wrote:
Grizzly440 wrote:
Oh please don't insult me with your witty comments and tasteless sarcasm! I might be offended by it! And Vexing Devil is good. But i am just typing to see myself talk. And you can always challenge me to a match since you are so insightful and skilled in this game of magical cards. I am no good at it though i assure you. Have a nice day. Oh yeah, and Vexing Devil is good. Bah Bye now.


I am retired from magic-league unfortunately, but if its a duel you want a duel you will get, I recommend a joust *slaps with leather glove* and really people play it far to fast and loose with the term good these days. And what do I care if I offend you good sir this is the internet, if you want someone to nurture your self esteem go running to your mummy.


The whole point is that this is the internet, and the petty sarcasm is truely useless. I am a grown man so i am truely laughing at all of this. And i said he is good, because he is. Everyone is saying no but i guarantee he will be in all decks utilizing red in t2 and alot of mod. My self esteem is quite sufficient to deal with the likes of some magic nerds lol! Especially when my intellect is probably superior. So anytime, let me know and I will unsheathe my sword to spill your wicked blood, in the name of Grizzly!!!! After all, this is just a game, that i think we both love.


Lol if your intellect was superior you would be capable of proffering some logic as to why he is good rather than just stating. Your lack of logic was why i was making fun of you in the first place. I did the same to flippi i enjoy debating the merits of a card, it was all in good jest but it annoys me when people state there opinion like it is fact with no reason at all. We can all learn something and gain insight by critically evaluating a card. Statements like he is good or he is bad, with out any reason are pretty useless.

I'll give you my fully developed opinion of the card. First of it is only good in decks that are willing to trade direct damage for cards from the outset of the game. By doing so you automatically restrict the other cards you are able to play, thanks to its lack of versatility (this is why lightning bolt is so much better than lava spike), its versatile card for your opponent but not you when is that ever good . You also become very vulnerable to life gain effects, and can not really do anything about it as your deck can only work coherently together by consistently being willing to trade cards for life. Also your lack of ability to interact with your opponent takes away the opportunity for you to out play your opponent or for him to out play you, this can be good or bad depending on the person you are playing.

Now looking at it in the deck it was tailored for. It is at its best on the early turns when it is an effective 4 to the dome for 1 mana which is a good deal but like i said before the problem is not the power of the card but the road it sends you down. Three in a starting hand could deal an opponent 12 damage by the 2nd turn which is pretty damn powerful yes. Similarly 2 in a opening hand would be powerful. However it suffers from the problem that if the deck is true dedicated burn and lacks creatures it makes otherwise blank removal spells live and if it is not this sort of burn deck you do not want to be playing this spell the first turn you want to be playing other creatures to develop your board so it loses value. The opponent will always take 4 unless he has a removal spell in almost all circumstances. So 1 for 1 removal and life gain are now stronger vs your deck by the nature of playing this card. Like i said previously its okay in the lava spike deck but this deck has all sort of problems in itself.
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judas_bcn



Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

while trading devil on first or second turn for 4 damage may not set your board position, a goblin guide or a stormkirk noble will rarely deal more than 4 damage against a wise opponent, as the most efficient way to stop RDW is stopping creatures from dealing damage. that said, you can look at this card as a goblin guide that will surely swing 2 times and without giving your opp an extra land. Besides, in an aggro deck you will be overwhelming your opp with creatures, so spot removal on him will make another creature live longer. thus, as a 4/3 one drop , he is a more than correct addition to a heavy aggro deck. it also fuels grim lavamancer if traded for life.
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Kabelis



Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 105

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

judas_bcn wrote:
while trading devil on first or second turn for 4 damage may not set your board position, a goblin guide or a stormkirk noble will rarely deal more than 4 damage against a wise opponent, as the most efficient way to stop RDW is stopping creatures from dealing damage. that said, you can look at this card as a goblin guide that will surely swing 2 times and without giving your opp an extra land. Besides, in an aggro deck you will be overwhelming your opp with creatures, so spot removal on him will make another creature live longer. thus, as a 4/3 one drop , he is a more than correct addition to a heavy aggro deck. it also fuels grim lavamancer if traded for life.


The fundimental difference is that while this will deal 4 damage easily, it is a straight up card disadvantage.
GG deals 4 damage AND requires an answer afterwards. This deals 4 damage and disappears.
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judas_bcn



Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kabelis wrote:
judas_bcn wrote:
while trading devil on first or second turn for 4 damage may not set your board position, a goblin guide or a stormkirk noble will rarely deal more than 4 damage against a wise opponent, as the most efficient way to stop RDW is stopping creatures from dealing damage. that said, you can look at this card as a goblin guide that will surely swing 2 times and without giving your opp an extra land. Besides, in an aggro deck you will be overwhelming your opp with creatures, so spot removal on him will make another creature live longer. thus, as a 4/3 one drop , he is a more than correct addition to a heavy aggro deck. it also fuels grim lavamancer if traded for life.


The fundimental difference is that while this will deal 4 damage easily, it is a straight up card disadvantage.
GG deals 4 damage AND requires an answer afterwards. This deals 4 damage and disappears.


I agree with that, but what i was stating is that it is not so bad as some people want to see. it's true they don't require an answer for it, but on the other hand it does not give lands to your opp, and you can still be playing those goblin guides. devil on turn 1, guide on turn 2 and it is not so bad after all.
i think that a deck that can use this is 2 ankhs RDW, as rarely the opp will have the choice of paying life to prevent devil hitting the board. also zoo decks could see him around, as that deck always looks for highly efficient creatures. also, if worried about card disadvantage, just add some undying creatures (green geist) and you recover from this disadvantage.
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GDP



Joined: 14 Jun 2009
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zoo would never play this card.

The only thing that can make him any sort of worthwhile is like some have said, Ranger of Eos- and even then its not awesome or anything...
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Grizzly440



Joined: 21 Feb 2012
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ManfredByron wrote:
Grizzly440 wrote:
ManfredByron wrote:
Grizzly440 wrote:
Oh please don't insult me with your witty comments and tasteless sarcasm! I might be offended by it! And Vexing Devil is good. But i am just typing to see myself talk. And you can always challenge me to a match since you are so insightful and skilled in this game of magical cards. I am no good at it though i assure you. Have a nice day. Oh yeah, and Vexing Devil is good. Bah Bye now.


I am retired from magic-league unfortunately, but if its a duel you want a duel you will get, I recommend a joust *slaps with leather glove* and really people play it far to fast and loose with the term good these days. And what do I care if I offend you good sir this is the internet, if you want someone to nurture your self esteem go running to your mummy.


The whole point is that this is the internet, and the petty sarcasm is truely useless. I am a grown man so i am truely laughing at all of this. And i said he is good, because he is. Everyone is saying no but i guarantee he will be in all decks utilizing red in t2 and alot of mod. My self esteem is quite sufficient to deal with the likes of some magic nerds lol! Especially when my intellect is probably superior. So anytime, let me know and I will unsheathe my sword to spill your wicked blood, in the name of Grizzly!!!! After all, this is just a game, that i think we both love.


Lol if your intellect was superior you would be capable of proffering some logic as to why he is good rather than just stating. Your lack of logic was why i was making fun of you in the first place. I did the same to flippi i enjoy debating the merits of a card, it was all in good jest but it annoys me when people state there opinion like it is fact with no reason at all. We can all learn something and gain insight by critically evaluating a card. Statements like he is good or he is bad, with out any reason are pretty useless.

I'll give you my fully developed opinion of the card. First of it is only good in decks that are willing to trade direct damage for cards from the outset of the game. By doing so you automatically restrict the other cards you are able to play, thanks to its lack of versatility (this is why lightning bolt is so much better than lava spike), its versatile card for your opponent but not you when is that ever good . You also become very vulnerable to life gain effects, and can not really do anything about it as your deck can only work coherently together by consistently being willing to trade cards for life. Also your lack of ability to interact with your opponent takes away the opportunity for you to out play your opponent or for him to out play you, this can be good or bad depending on the person you are playing.

Now looking at it in the deck it was tailored for. It is at its best on the early turns when it is an effective 4 to the dome for 1 mana which is a good deal but like i said before the problem is not the power of the card but the road it sends you down. Three in a starting hand could deal an opponent 12 damage by the 2nd turn which is pretty damn powerful yes. Similarly 2 in a opening hand would be powerful. However it suffers from the problem that if the deck is true dedicated burn and lacks creatures it makes otherwise blank removal spells live and if it is not this sort of burn deck you do not want to be playing this spell the first turn you want to be playing other creatures to develop your board so it loses value. The opponent will always take 4 unless he has a removal spell in almost all circumstances. So 1 for 1 removal and life gain are now stronger vs your deck by the nature of playing this card. Like i said previously its okay in the lava spike deck but this deck has all sort of problems in itself.

very inciteful. I also concurr with your evaluation. But my rebuttal is this, devil will be useful in a few different decks. The ones that come to mind for me are, RDW first. I need not explain why as i see you are intelligent and know why. Second i foresee a new U/R Delver deck in the near future using a suite of goblin guide lavamancer delver snap devil. obviously the number of copies of each will vary. with some runechanter's pikes and the usual accessories of maybe visions bolts and other assorted goodies. i also see the new land in it as well to get those dead draws out of the way. i dont remember the lands name. so i pressure you turn one with the devil or the delver. gives me more turn one pressure. late game he is pretty useles except for blocking. put a pike on him hes very offensive. delver is a 3/2 flier who is just as easily removed. when flipped of course. i find in mod that it is a race where you must be most aggressive in turns 1-4. hence the devil and delver combo is quite impressive. take 4 on turn 1 or 2. deal with my devildelver by turn 2-3 if you dont take the 4. and i do have protection for them as well in my potent U/R arsenal.
i cannot offer alot of insight but i see him being a possible target in a reanimator? i could and probably am being silly for saying that.
in standard i see the devil as a 4 of in any deck utilizing red. no path or bolt. so he will be on board or you start 4 ahead of your opponent.
And all of this is possible for the price of 1 red symbol? how about throwing him in the storm deck? or splintertwin? i see much potential for this devil of a card.
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