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vexing devil


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Mrrr



Joined: 06 Aug 2011
Posts: 65

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A 4/3 for 1 is very good. 4 life for 1 is very good. Winner. No need for shenanigans.
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Duodax



Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 390

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can pay life to make opp mulligan and skip his turn, later on the creature is not relevant anymore > crappy card.
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LuckyDucky



Joined: 14 Jan 2012
Posts: 165

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=407398

I think Vexing Devil will be in every Modern RDW deck. I don't think it is good enough to make RDW good again in standard unless there are some more cards coming in AVR.
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Kaesh



Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 376

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It doesn't even make it to Top5 red one drops in Standard. The only thing it does accomplish is making you dead money in a tournament.
Quote:
just to use bounce to keep getting him to come out

This doesn't work, the choice is made on the ability's resolution.
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Kabelis



Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 105

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It doesn't fit anywhere currently, that's the problem. In standard you will just take 4 and be happy that opponent wasted his turn not advancing his board position. You need some very specific draws to make this card good. Burn spells are good in RDW because they act as removal to get your creatures through OR as a way to finish them off once you enter the "burn" phase.
This will never be a topdeck to finish them off or a powerful permanent damage source they have a hard time dealing with early on.

If you're a dedicated lava spike & CO burn deck, you won't have enough creatures to "outmass" their removal. They will give you the 4/3 and use 1 of their removal spells on it. Since your deck won't have nearly as many creatures as the regular RDW deck, you're less likely to follow up with another creature. Burn deck's strength is the difficulty to interact with it. Something like Keldon Marauders or Hellspark Elemental will at least do SOME damage before dying, this will get 1-for-1ed which burn deck doesn't want as each peace is critical to finish opponent off.

Basically this doesn't supplement either plan very well as long as opponent can evaluate the amount of removal spells he needs to save for your permanent damage sources (creatures) and how much damage he can get burned for. So it is better the worse your opponent is, I suppose.
It's a powerful card, but in practice it's just very awkward.
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Wichtelman



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well same with goblin guide... ok guide has haste...
i think its ok if u have it turn 1-2 in legacy...
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Strid3r



Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 295

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Duodax: sure for example the control player can take damage and then heal it with timely reinforcements or let it enter to destroy it with doj, but it is still better than any of the crappy cards rdw has in current T2

Hey dudes you are so wrong i tested vexing devil already and it is the best card in the future rdw. You must cast it somewhere in the middle of the game so that no option is good for opponent.
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GreenBear



Joined: 27 Jul 2010
Posts: 898

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a worse version of lava spike, which takes some doing:)

That said it will be good in the same 0 interaction, only one way of approaching the game (forced by the cards you are playing and hence easy to beat) bad decks lava spike is played in.
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sc4rs



Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 859

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RDW still wins trials on here from time to time. Forcing a RDW deck down the metagame's throat will win every once in a while.

It'll see some play but, like Browbeat, giving your opponent a choice makes it worse than it looks. It's probably playable and about on a level of Browbeat, maybe a little better because it only costs R and so isn't as huge of a mana sink in the midgame.
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Ffancrzy
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 258

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think this card is playable outside 1 deck that has little to no success, the Modern/Legacy "Lava Spike" style burn decks, and even then its a little sketchy.

Punisher cards are generally bad.
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Spyx



Joined: 31 Oct 2004
Posts: 1188

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a dedicated burn deck it's pretty decent in your opening hand. Even then, you make your opponents swords/path do something. At least goblin guide can sneak in for 2 when they are tapped out or on the draw and marauders always does 2.
Mediocre card.
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DonDiggy



Joined: 16 Mar 2010
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys are dead wrong, sorry.

Vexing Devil will be an Auto-Include in Modern + Standart, in both RDW and UR Delver Decks.

Let's face the facts: Its powerlevel heavily scales to the gamestate. A wise opponent will !always! pay Life to kill him, unless he's in range for Double Burn/Shrine/whatsoever. So its literally 4 to the head until Turn4-5. Sure at sorcery speed and only to player/walker, but still pretty amazing. Keep in mind that the opposing player always wants to keep his Removals for other creatures - especially with evasion- like Delver/Noble/Clique/whatever.

His Powerlevel reaches its peak at about Turn 3-4. Paying Life hurts at this point, and Removals have been eaten by the good early Drops. But he's always the burn4 or the creature to handle, no typical Browbeat. A 3-Off sounds reasonable.
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Kabelis



Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 105

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DonDiggy wrote:
You guys are dead wrong, sorry.

Vexing Devil will be an Auto-Include in Modern + Standart, in both RDW and UR Delver Decks.

Let's face the facts: Its powerlevel heavily scales to the gamestate. A wise opponent will !always! pay Life to kill him, unless he's in range for Double Burn/Shrine/whatsoever. So its literally 4 to the head until Turn4-5. Sure at sorcery speed and only to player/walker, but still pretty amazing. Keep in mind that the opposing player always wants to keep his Removals for other creatures - especially with evasion- like Delver/Noble/Clique/whatever.

His Powerlevel reaches its peak at about Turn 3-4. Paying Life hurts at this point, and Removals have been eaten by the good early Drops. But he's always the burn4 or the creature to handle, no typical Browbeat. A 3-Off sounds reasonable.


How often does a deck which tries to kill opponent with creatures (RUG delver, for example) want to lightning bolt opponent directly to the face on T3-4? This card does exactly that. The problem is that it will NEVER be a game winning lightning bolt off the top once opponent stabilised, same way it will never be a permanent damage source opponent NEEDS to have a removal for early game if they can't handle a 4/3.
RUG delver/standard RDW simply doesn't want a slightly better lava spike, it wants to get on the board early, remove creatures and have the added value of top decking burn spells to finish opponent off after they've stabilised.

It doesn't advance board position early game. If you just happen to draw a burn heavy hand and opponents are likely to take 4, then it's pretty sweet, otherwise, they will take 4 and not care too much because you cannot "combo" them out with additional burn spells and you wasted 1 precious mana to not advance your board position/set up your draw step with serum visions etc.

Burn decks run red burn spells because they act EITHER as removal or as a finisher lategame once opponent stabilised, this card doesn't accomplish that. If it did damage to creatures as well, then yes, it would be pretty sick.
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DonDiggy



Joined: 16 Mar 2010
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a healthy Meta I would absolutely agree with you Kabelis. But that is obviously not the case. We have a Meta which is completely missing Combo (Ramp is dead and Frites will follow, in case you want to call these combo). And unfortunately, Controldecks are in a bad shape too, because of the Amount of agressive Decks (RDW, Ux Delver, Bx Zombies, RG Aggro). Those Decks make >50% of the Field.

In these Matchups, all you want is value. Value, and advantages in the Damage Race. 4 to the Head IS value, and a huge advantage in the Race.

Furthermore: We're talking about the Devil's Impact between Turn1 and Turn5 at maximum. There is really no need to discuss later Turns when the opposing deck stabilized itself, because if the RDW Player didnt succeed until then, its Shrine or its over. You just cant disagree: If the Game is supposed to end in 5 Turns, all you want is beef or damage, and this one grants both at a high level.
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pg8



Joined: 27 Feb 2011
Posts: 299

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Every time I see someone play this card, I will imagine that I'm playing against that shitty kid at FNM who sees a turn 1 Delver, then decides to Shock my face.

Remember kids, if your Vexing Devil was a Shock, you might actually have an ok deck.
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