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Black Sun's Zenith and Undying


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GunsAndDope



Joined: 12 Jul 2011
Posts: 261

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:21 pm    Post subject: Black Sun's Zenith and Undying Reply with quote

I couldn't find an existing topic.

If I have an undying creature with a +1/+1 counter on it and cast Black Sun's Zenith for enough to kill it, will it come back to play?
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struikje



Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 108

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It won't come back, that much I do know. Why, I don't have a clue Smile
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Hardtrack



Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 651

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Putting a creature with zero toughness in the graveyard and removing +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters are both State-Based Actions (SBAs). Both are checked and performed at the same time. Therefore the last moment the creature was on the battlefield, it had a +1/+1 counter and Undying will not trigger.

It will not come back.


Last edited by Hardtrack on Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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Halldir



Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 221

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sub question- playing zenith on 1 will remove counter from my undying creatures with counter and then, when they die again, undying will trigger again right?
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GunsAndDope



Joined: 12 Jul 2011
Posts: 261

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hardtrack wrote:
Putting a creature with zero toughness and removing +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters are both State-Based Actions (SBAs). Both are checked and performed at the same time. Therefore the last moment the creature was on the battlefield, it had a +1/+1 counter and Undying will not trigger.

It will not come back.


That is so weird, but sorta makes sense.



And yes, BSZ for 1 will remove the +1 counter, so the next time that creature dies, it will return.
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Halldir



Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 221

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nice... t2 combo rock comin'
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GunsAndDope



Joined: 12 Jul 2011
Posts: 261

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Halldir wrote:
nice... t2 combo rock comin'


right?!
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tchiseen



Joined: 08 Mar 2010
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GunsAndDope wrote:
Hardtrack wrote:
Putting a creature with zero toughness and removing +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters are both State-Based Actions (SBAs). Both are checked and performed at the same time. Therefore the last moment the creature was on the battlefield, it had a +1/+1 counter and Undying will not trigger.

It will not come back.


That is so weird, but sorta makes sense.



And yes, BSZ for 1 will remove the +1 counter, so the next time that creature dies, it will return.


NO. It does NOT come back. Let's get a real judge ruling in here at some point eh?
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Pushover



Joined: 15 Nov 2008
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
121.3. If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it as a state-based action, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it. See rule 704.


So yes, for a BSZ for 1, it does reset undying.
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xBlueDemonx



Joined: 13 Jan 2011
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Noob combo
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xJudicatorx



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 696

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tchiseen wrote:
GunsAndDope wrote:
Hardtrack wrote:
Putting a creature with zero toughness and removing +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters are both State-Based Actions (SBAs). Both are checked and performed at the same time. Therefore the last moment the creature was on the battlefield, it had a +1/+1 counter and Undying will not trigger.

It will not come back.


That is so weird, but sorta makes sense.



And yes, BSZ for 1 will remove the +1 counter, so the next time that creature dies, it will return.


NO. It does NOT come back. Let's get a real judge ruling in here at some point eh?


To be more clear about this, GunsandDope is referring to a BSZ which does not reduce the creature's toughness to 0.

As Hardtrack said, if the creature has it's toughness reduced to 0, it will go to the graveyard at the same time +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters are removed. So the creature goes directly from being a Creature with both types of counters on it to being a creature card in the graveyard. However, if the creature's toughness is not reduced to 0 immediately, the +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters will cancel each other out, leaving him with neither. If it then dies later in the turn, Undying will trigger.

A good example of the last case is this: NAP controls an Immerwolf and a Young Wolf with a +1/+1 counter on it. AP casts BSZ for x=2. When SBAs are checked, Immerwolf has 0 toughness, Young Wolf has 1 toughness and has a +1/+1 counter which cancels one of the 2 -1/-1 counters on it - Immerwolf is put into the graveyard and Young Wolf remains for another round of SBAs. Now that Immerwolf is no longer on the battlefield, Young Wolf has 0 toughness, but his +1/+1 counter was already removed, therefore Undying *does* trigger.
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Strid3r



Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 295

PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do the counters really cancel out by DCI rules?

That is so stupid...

Like for example if you proliferate, you can't add just 1 +1/+1 counter or one -1/-1 counter?
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GunsAndDope



Joined: 12 Jul 2011
Posts: 261

PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

strid3r wrote:
Do the counters really cancel out by DCI rules?

That is so stupid...

Like for example if you proliferate, you can't add just 1 +1/+1 counter or one -1/-1 counter?


It is really stupid. They apparently cancel out, but not instantaneously.
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xJudicatorx



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 696

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:33 am    Post subject: Re: ... Reply with quote

theMTGkid64 wrote:
I know this forum post is old, but i feel like this previous convo was confusing. So im going to ask a different way

so if I have a Flayer of the Hatebound on the battlefield and it goes to the graveyard, it will come back out with +1/+1.

Then lets say I have a Hex Parasite on the battlefield and I remove that +1/+1 from my Flayer... Then after the counters are removed it dies, will its undying affect then trigger again???

If this is true witch seems like it is, this is a crazy combo and has potential to be crazy.


Undying does not care whether the creature used to have a counter on it. If it doesn't have a +1/+1 counter on it when it dies, the ability triggers.
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Clariax
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:18 pm    Post subject: Re: ... Reply with quote

theMTGkid64 wrote:

Flayer of the Hatebound 4/2 dies.

Comes back with +1/+1 making it a 5/3.

I then play a Black Sun for -1/-1 making Flayer a 4/2 again.

Then Undying will trigger AGAIN the next time it dies correct? Or do the counters placed on it from the first time it died still affect it?... This ruling is so confusing.


In this case, the Flayer of Hatebound does not have any +1/+1 counters on it at the time it dies. Having counters previously doesn't matter, it only matters if it has them at the moment it dies, and since it doesn't, undying will trigger.
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