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views on MWS--& a question to ML faculty


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JacobMatthew



Joined: 16 Dec 2009
Posts: 128

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:23 am    Post subject: views on MWS--& a question to ML faculty Reply with quote

i've recently gotten heavily back into playing magic in real life (tax returns), and I always tell my friends to go download MWS and start playtesting in twenty minutes, and to register on M-L... two different unrelated people have told me that they don't like it because they've just played idiots, scrubs, and quitters. while this may seem disturbingly true enough for mwsplay.net i tell them about m-l but they are both turned off enough by just that to go spend their money on MTGO. while the interface on MTGO is designed better, clearly, than MWS, I still prefer MWS because after playing on it for so long MTGO is just really redundant to me and MWS is just faster and more fluid imo. but i digress. my question or topic here is like... what do i say to convince people to come to M-L? basically i just berate them for paying money when you can do basically everything (and more, like way cooler formats) on ML that you can do on modo. ML is great, we are ahead of the curve on the metagame imo, we get to play with the new sets sometimes ridiculously early, etc. also this begs the question, does ML really WANT a thousand player influx? will your ad revenue be enough to not care about the spotlight put on ML (legal issues)? do you have the nonprofit judge base to HANDLE that sort of player base? why don't you guys advertise more aggressively? is this discussion taboo?
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moscowdemon
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Posts: 279

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I am replying with is by no means an official reply. I am simply giving my personal opinion to your questions with how I see things.

what do i say to convince people to come to M-L?
I advertise IRL for the league all the time. The best way is to describe it as a MODO experience without the money commitment, and you could also randomly win money without paying costs (outside of your lovely account). Our fun formats and early play on formats gives us an edge, from how I see it.

does ML really WANT a thousand player influx?
Absolutely. Nothing helps more than a wider player base. More players means more likely judges as well, to answer the judge base question. After the Great Purge, we need to basically almost "restart" the judge base, which means YOU the players need to STUDY and PASS! I would love nothing more than to have a few hundred new players who constantly are around over the next month or so. Some of them will likely wish to pass the test and that means more judges. Also, a more rules knowledgable community is a better community (counting out the ultra rules lawyers that people dislike).

will your ad revenue be enough to not care about the spotlight put on ML (legal issues)?
legal issues are no problem, so long as the staff follow the C&D order (which they do!). so long as the staff keep doing their job as great as they do, no legal issues are to be worried about.

why don't you guys advertise more aggressively?
I think this is part of C&D? Otherwise, I don't actually know. I figure it is due to having no where to advertise. I would think that the top team sites would prefer to use MODO because it keeps them out of trouble maybe? But I would like to see this answer as well from staff.

is this discussion taboo?
Not at all, in my opinion. In fact, I am surprised not more of it comes up. Most of the player base has seemingly fallen into an alarming place with how it is so laid back. Most players sit back and won't help out but demand events and it's scary to see. To think that all they would have to do is study the game they want to play so much and pass a test (a somewhat easy one) and they can not only make themselves more minis, but they can even CONTRIBUTE! Judge rewards (which get announced every few months) is a good way to get rewarded for contributing greatly.

Hope this gave you some thoughts on follow up questions, and maybe gets a staff member (probably weedmonkey if I provoke him when he wakes Razz) to give some official replies to you. I know from my own experience that I have been here 3 years and love the place, as proven by my L3 status. As soon as I passed the test, I immediately worked my ass off contributing, and I thankfully got the promotion at a good time. I just have been VERY active IRL with judging and playing, so ML has been something I go on whenever I am not asleep lol. I may not be running the same large amount of minis, but that is more due to my very hectic schedule of running around than to me not wanting to. I am cooking up a new idea for a masters series (like the one I ran before) but it will be a bit before it starts going good. I speak truth when I say I love this community and enjoy not only being a part of it, but also contributing back to the community after years of not being able to. Things from getting coverage helpers to new judges will help us thrive!
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niknight
Judge Director
Level 5 Judge


Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
i've recently gotten heavily back into playing magic in real life (tax returns), and I always tell my friends to go download MWS and start playtesting in twenty minutes, and to register on M-L... two different unrelated people have told me that they don't like it because they've just played idiots, scrubs, and quitters. while this may seem disturbingly true enough for mwsplay.net i tell them about m-l but they are both turned off enough by just that to go spend their money on MTGO.


The detraction that most players have towards M-L is based on two primary sources:
1. MWSPlay
2. the very old reputation that M-L had as a hive of wretched scum and villainy (see also rampant cheating and judge abuse)
A quick aside on point #2. There was a point, way in the past, when the assumption was that we harbored a lot of cheaters (similar to the accusations against SCG now after the bannings of Bertoncini and Flores). The same explanaition applies here as it does to SCG: cheating is something that’s sometimes really, really difficult to catch. Back when we used Apprentice as the main program, we had to physically catch people in the act of using the “forbidden script”. Each time we would catch somebody, we would ban them, but the cheaters would just figure a way around our detection mechanisms (until MLAnti was created). And please don’t get me started on the judge abuse thing… before becoming Judge Director, I worked under 4 previous directors. Whenever a judge was found doing something shady, they were banned.
The real point here is that first impressions count for a lot. Those two items above, no matter how incorrect they may be, are the first impressions that people have about M-L. What we have to do, as a community, is find a way to reverse that stereotype.


Quote:
while the interface on MTGO is designed better, clearly, than MWS, I still prefer MWS because after playing on it for so long MTGO is just really redundant to me and MWS is just faster and more fluid imo.


One of the main attractions to MTGO is that the rules enforcement is already built into the program. This is probably their second largest selling point (after being able to draft whenever you feel like).


Quote:
but i digress. my question or topic here is like... what do i say to convince people to come to M-L? basically i just berate them for paying money when you can do basically everything (and more, like way cooler formats) on ML that you can do on modo. ML is great, we are ahead of the curve on the metagame imo, we get to play with the new sets sometimes ridiculously early, etc.


You NEVER want to berate people in an attempt to convince them you are correct. The idea is that you have to sell them on what the league does very well, while convincing them that their previously held assumptions are not true. If you encounter players with problems concerning our past reputation, then you should tell them about the “Great Judge Purge”, and how our current staff is on top of and very responsive to genuine player concerns (you have no clue how many times I get an email of somebody complaining about a judge/player doing something bad… but they can’t actually provide evidence. Then they come here and complain in the forums).


Quote:
also this begs the question, does ML really WANT a thousand player influx? will your ad revenue be enough to not care about the spotlight put on ML (legal issues)? do you have the nonprofit judge base to HANDLE that sort of player base? why don't you guys advertise more aggressively? is this discussion taboo?


Do we want a 1,000 player influx… no. What we want is a 5,000 player influx Mr. Green Our advertising revenue is based on the number of page views, and the number of clicks the ads get (so if you want to increase prize support, CLICK THOSE ADS). More players = more money available. Also, as Moscow pointed out, with a large influx of players usually comes a large influx of judges. The ability to run any type of tournament you want, any time you want is a huge benefit (especially if you’re testing for something).
As far as the advertising and legal issues are concerned: We are always looking for new people to advertise with us (Hint: If you’re looking to advertise your site/store, give Nico and email!). Before Modern was created, we partnered up with Gavin Verhey to promote his Overextended format. We ran countless minis and trials of Overextended, and he was nice enough to sponsor a Master for us.
The main problem that we have with advertising is that there are a lot of people who don’t want to piss off WotC. The words “Magic-League” are pretty much persona non-grata at sites like mtg.com and scg.com. We followed the directions of the C&D order to the letter. We don’t host, or link to, any play application, nor do we sponsor one. Players are perfectly capable of playing their match on MWS, Apprentice, Cockatrice (though security codes aren’t perfected yet), MTGO, or by carrier pigeon (if you can find a way to finish 3 games in 50 minutes).
As another aside, do you know the best way to get people to our site? It’s to have interesting, timely and original content. I firmly believe that the easiest way to get this massive influx of players is by beefing up our base of articles and other forms of coverage. We may never get to the level of SCG of CFB, but we don’t have to. If we can get a decent number of players reading our site on a daily basis to get relevant strategy info, our league will grow.
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GunsAndDope



Joined: 12 Jul 2011
Posts: 261

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A note on MTGO and MWS.

MTGO is not a better interface.

Also, play MTGO makes you a worse player. MWS makes you better.
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niknight
Judge Director
Level 5 Judge


Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GunsAndDope wrote:
A note on MTGO and MWS.

MTGO is not a better interface.

Also, play MTGO makes you a worse player. MWS makes you better.


I would have to disagree with you here. The idea that automatic rules enforcement makes you a worse player is fallacious. Granted, MTGO will never allow you to improve in some areas (like bluffing, or remembering optional triggers). It does allow you to improve in a lot of other areas, such as:

1. Making strategies. Since you can never do anything illegal, every strategy you form will be within the rules.
2. Replays. There is a vast difference between reading your game logs and watching your match again in video. This makes it so much easier to see why you lost, or where things turned around.
3. As much as it pains me to say this... better player pools. While we do have a few well known players here that you can play against, it is very feasible that you could play against a string of high level people in a booster draft or a daily on MTGO.
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GunsAndDope



Joined: 12 Jul 2011
Posts: 261

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

niknight wrote:
GunsAndDope wrote:
A note on MTGO and MWS.

MTGO is not a better interface.

Also, play MTGO makes you a worse player. MWS makes you better.


I would have to disagree with you here. The idea that automatic rules enforcement makes you a worse player is fallacious. Granted, MTGO will never allow you to improve in some areas (like bluffing, or remembering optional triggers). It does allow you to improve in a lot of other areas, such as:

1. Making strategies. Since you can never do anything illegal, every strategy you form will be within the rules.
2. Replays. There is a vast difference between reading your game logs and watching your match again in video. This makes it so much easier to see why you lost, or where things turned around.
3. As much as it pains me to say this... better player pools. While we do have a few well known players here that you can play against, it is very feasible that you could play against a string of high level people in a booster draft or a daily on MTGO.


I can't agree with you on your first point, but #2 and #3 are pretty spot on.

However, let's not forget #4.) You have to pay for cards that don't exist.
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struikje



Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 108

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All these posts are so loooooong
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Burton911



Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Posts: 172

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
However, let's not forget #4.) You have to pay for cards that don't exist.


The medium you get your RL Mtg cards in is cardboard.
The medium you get when purchasing MODO cards is serverspace.

If that does not convince you the information is even stored in a theoretically measerable way, the exact method obviously depending on the used storage medium.

Digital cards have there advantages as well (they dont wear off, they dont waste space, you dont have to buy multiple versioins for different decks, ....)

However i think that modo is way to overpriced for far too many reason, the main one beeing that the interface is crap, and not worth the investment

struikje wrote:


fyp
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Sebas_



Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 87

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

just i tell the people something like :

Hey bitch play on magic-league instead of MTGO, MTGO is for faggots you want to be a faggot? =[
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GunsAndDope



Joined: 12 Jul 2011
Posts: 261

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think anyone will disagree with me when I say that the best way to improve your Magic game is to play against players better than you.

In this way, Magic-League really complements MODO. It gives the poor guy a chance to play a game they love in an environment where they can get better.

MODO is amazing because it allows competitive play regardless of geographical location, but requires a hefty investment (unless you're good enough a booster-drafter).

ML is a great place to hone your skills, and MODO (or RL Events) is a great place to display them. For instance, if you want to play Type 2 competitively, playtest your decks here for free and don't waste money on sucky lists or lost matches due to inexperience.

In fact, I never bought anything from MODO until I started play here and began looking for higher-level booster-drafting (which I spent months practicing in #draft4you).

I think MODO, as of right now, however, is a shitty excuse to drain every last drop of money from this cash cow. Granted, if you collect a complete set, you do get the opportunity to pay shipping cost and receive their cardboard equivalents, but that just doesn't justify a 1:1 virtual:material value.


Dear Wizards of the Coast (Hasbro LLC):

I should be allowed to "cash out" my virtual cards for real ones (with me paying the shipping, of course). This cash out would remove credit for the virtual card in exchange for a real one (or vice-versa, if possible).

Sincerely,
GunsAndDope
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Morpheus2222



Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe that every card online should have a unique serial number that way you can own the true card (via they ship it to you and its also accounted for online) essentially two cards but shows that you have purchased it i believe that will generate more revenue for the magic gaming community and decrease the cost of some cards
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Balaviaris



Joined: 15 Feb 2009
Posts: 338

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

moscowdemon wrote:

what do i say to convince people to come to M-L?
I advertise IRL for the league all the time. The best way is to describe it as a MODO experience without the money commitment, and you could also randomly win money without paying costs (outside of your lovely account). Our fun formats and early play on formats gives us an edge, from how I see it.


Since you brought that up, what's going on with the cash prizes? I was told to send an email to Nico for the matter, but still no reply (and I think I'm not the only one Smile ). I don't want to be disrespectful or anything, just wondering...
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Tao



Joined: 22 Dec 2007
Posts: 864

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sorry gaize i told PV to get lost & now the pros think magic-league is for girls.

but in all seriousness, there's a high caliber of play here. we've got notables like PV & caleb dude-ward checking out our goods plus a huge amount of m-l users who've proven they can consistently win trials in a huge array of formats (shooter, barneystinso, duodax, coolcreep, even TooGay Champion)

MODO has it's share of notable players, which are rounded out by a bunch of idiots with lackluster decklists. it's reputation is better i guess, but that's all MODO has going for it once that stupid MWS crashing bug is fixed
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Tao



Joined: 22 Dec 2007
Posts: 864

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

seriously, it's been over a year since we've had a thread pop up about corrupt judges. as to whether that's m-l's doing or just the trolls finally leaving.. anyone's guess is as good as mine.
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Pokemaster



Joined: 16 Sep 2007
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

reddit has pretty big community, but they play on cockatrice. http://www.reddit.com/r/MTGTournaments and http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/
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