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New rules on triggered abilites



 
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Magic-League.com Forum Index -> Magic Rulings
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WhoamI



Joined: 24 Mar 2011
Posts: 43

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:55 am    Post subject: New rules on triggered abilites Reply with quote

So, let me see if I understand this correctly. If an opponent plays Reckless Waif turn 1 and passes. I draw, play land and pass. During his upkeep he fails to flip the Waif. He moves to declare attacks and says, "Oh, he is supposed to be flipped". It is just tough luck for him right? I have no responsibility to tell him he should have flipped it and since he didn't it is too late now or what?

Stickied this thread: more questions by other users expected - CMA-Flippi
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Farseer
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 335

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mass Quoting Rules to familiarise myself...

---

1.4
An optional ability does one or more of the following things, and nothing else:
• Gains you life or causes an opponent to lose life.
• Puts cards from your library, graveyard, or exile zones into your hand or onto the battlefield. This includes drawing cards.
• Causes opponents to put objects from their hand or the battlefield into the library, graveyard or exile.
• Puts a permanent into play under your control or gives you control of a permanent.
• Puts +x/+x counters, or counters linked to a beneficial effect, on a permanent you control.
• Gives +x/+x or a beneficial ability to a target creature you control.
• Exiles, damages, destroys, taps, or gives -x/-x to an opponent's target permanent. If the ability could target your own permanents, it is not optional unless that ability could target an opponent.
• Gives you additional turns or phases.
• Counters a spell or conditionally counters a spell, but only when cast by an opponent.

3.1. Game Play Error — Missed Trigger
Additional Remedy
If the trigger has an instruction that specifies a default action associated with a choice made by the controller of the trigger (usually "If you don't ..." or "... unless"), resolve the default action immediately without using the stack. If there are unresolved spells or effects that are no longer legal as a result of this action, rewind the game to remove all such spells or abilities. Resulting triggers generated by the action still trigger and resolve as normal.
If the trigger requires a choice that does not have a default action, requires a choice made by another player, or requires no choice, but will have an effect on the visual representation of the game, and the error is caught within the scope of a turn cycle (see below for definition), insert the forgotten ability on the bottom of the stack. The player may not make choices involving objects that were not in the zone or zones referenced by the trigger when the ability triggered. If the error is discovered partway through an action (such as choosing blockers), complete the action before inserting the trigger into the stack. If the error is discovered after a turn cycle, continue the game without resolving the forgotten trigger. A turn cycle is defined as the time from the beginning of a player's step or phase to the end of that player's next same step or phase. If a turn cycle would end in a skipped step or phase (but not turn), the turn cycle expires when the step or phase is skipped. No attempt should be made to rewind the game state to the point of the missed trigger.

3.7. Game Play Error — Failure to Maintain Game State
Definition
A player allows another player in the game to commit a Game Play Error other than Missed Trigger involving an effect or action that he or she does not control, and has not pointed it out before he or she could potentially gain advantage. If a judge believes a player is intentionally not pointing out other players’ illegal actions, either for his or her own advantage, or in the hope of bringing it up at a more strategically advantageous time, the infraction is Cheating — Fraud.

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Transform is not an "Optional Ability".

Your opponent missed a mandatory trigger, so will get a Warning for GPE - Missed Trigger.

The error was noticed within a turn cycle. The remedy is that the opponent will finish declaring attachers and will flip Reckless Waif.

You will not get a Warning because the situation involved an effect or action that he or she does not control.
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Farseer
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 335

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

New Penalty Guidelines just been published.

It is responsability of both players to keep game go right, EXCEPT for triggered abilities. Each player is responsible ONLY for his own triggered abilities now.
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Mr_DoomZ



Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex Bertoncheaty sez: If your at 1 life with a Dark Confidant in play it is okay to miss those clutch triggers if it only costs you one warning if caught.
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Fanboy1



Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr_DoomZ wrote:
Alex Bertoncheaty sez: If your at 1 life with a Dark Confidant in play it is okay to miss those clutch triggers if it only costs you one warning if caught.


BS. You are still responsible for your own triggers and if you miss them on purpose to cheat you still get DQ and ban if Head Judge and DCI decide you deserve it.
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Weedmonkey



Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 324

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the case of Optional Abilities that is no longer the case Fanboy.

Taken from Section 1.4 of the IPG:

Quote:
Traditionally, some abilities include the word ‘may’ as part of their text, indicating that their effect is optional. At Competitive and Professional REL, some additional triggered abilities and enters-the-battlefield replacement effects are considered optional. The player is not required to follow the instruction when the ability resolves, and if the ability is forgotten it will not retroactively be applied. An optional ability does one or more of the following things, and nothing else:


This part of the section implies that players who intentionally miss an optional ability trigger cannot be found guilty of cheating, as they have neither misrepresented game procedures, nor willingly violated game procedures.

However, in the case of Dark Confidant it is not an optional ability, as it causes its controller to lose life. Just wanted to clarify that for everybody.
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Conkisstador



Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 543

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While appreciate it... some "optionals" that are supposedly "benefits" can actually be losers of the game, AKA when you are close to decking out and 'forget' to draw a card. Or missing Jin-Gitaxias, etc.

I dislike this change.
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Farseer
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 335

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28790499/January_2012_IPG_Revisions?sdb=1

Quote:
Hi all,

Some among you may have noticed that the January 2012 version of the IPG has been removed from the rules section of our website. The changes to that document have been met with a lot of scrutiny and confusion over the last few days, and rightly so.

While we work on a new version of that document, the October 2011 version will remain in effect. We hope to have the new version up before January 1, but working around the holidays can sometimes be chanllenging, so don't be too surprised if it's a bit later than that.

Let me emphasize some of the philosophies behind the tournament rules: 1) Tournament play should welcome new players, protect the honest, guard against abuse, and foster competition. 2) Different levels of play will have different levels of enforcement, but the game doesn't change. The deck you bring to the kitchen table works the same way it does under the bright lights of the Pro Tour.

To that end:
1. Players will not be responsible for pointing out triggered abilities they don't control. This change was met with near-universal praise. At competitive events, the player must assume responsibility for his or her own cards.
2. If an optional triggered ability is missed, it is missed. No player is penalized, and the ability is essentially "lost." You can identify an optional triggered ability in two ways: it says "may" or it asks for a numeical choice (including number of targets), and 0 is a valid choice. The controller is simply assumed to have declined the ability or chosen 0, as appropriate.
3. Number of cards whose functionality is changing: 0. None. Zip. Zilch.
4. Number of cards that will play differently depending on what level of event you're at: 0. The empty set. The big goose egg.

There will be additional information made available in time detailing what exactly the Missed Trigger infraction entails, who gets penalized for what and when, and what players and judges can expect. Until then, I'll leave you with some principles of the changes:

1. If you forget a trigger that benefits you, you're unlikely to be penalized for it ouside of missing out on the effect. There's also little reason to alert a judge at that point. (e.g. Your opponent forgets to put a counter on his Shrine of Burning Rage. Just let it go. He's not getting a warning or the counter.)
2. If you forget a trigger that is to your detriment, you're likely to be penalized with a warning. Pay attention to your own stuff.
3. You will always have a window to point out that an opponent has forgotten a triggered ability and have the effect resolve. If he controls Honden of Whatever the White One Was Called, and you really want him to gain the 2 life, you'll be able to have that happen.

Also, keep in mind that under the current and future sets of rules, purposefully forgetting a mandatory triggered ability in order to gain an advantage is Cheating. Capital C there.

There are a lot of weird situations (e.g. Howling Mine, Curses, etc.) that can come up, and we hope the new IPG will cover them all. Minor gaps may exist, and we'll address them as we go along. (Really, I mean minor gaps, not glaring holes like last time.)

Have fun!
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