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The Expendables (B/W Altar's Reap)


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scopeless



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 38

PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:28 pm    Post subject: The Expendables (B/W Altar's Reap) Reply with quote

-The Expendables-
By: Scopeless
(Updated 12/5/11 @ 10am CST)

// Lands
8 [ISD] Plains (2)
10 [SOM] Swamp (4)
1 [M12] Buried Ruin
4 [ISD] Isolated Chapel
2 [ISD] Ghost Quarter

// Creatures
4 [ISD] Doomed Traveler
4 [M12] Reassembling Skeleton
2 [M12] Sun Titan
2 [M12] Roc Egg
1 [M12] Archon of Justice
1 [ISD] Mentor of the Meek

// Spells
4 [ISD] Altar's Reap
2 [SOM] Culling Dais
3 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
2 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
2 [M12] Druidic Satchel
2 [MBS] Black Sun's Zenith
2 [M12] Day of Judgment
2 [M12] Oblivion Ring
1 [M12] Doom Blade
1 [NPH] Dismember
1 [NPH] Sword of War and Peace

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ISD] Ghost Quarter
SB: 1 [M12] Day of Judgment
SB: 1 [M12] Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 [ISD] Sever the Bloodline
SB: 1 [NPH] Dismember
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 [NPH] Sword of War and Peace
SB: 2 [SOM] Revoke Existence
SB: 1 [M12] Timely Reinforcements
SB: 1 [SOM] Sylvok Lifestaff
---------------------------------------------------------

The deck is built around the idea of taking blue out of solar flare. What you lose by taking out blue is an instant speed draw-engine, counterspells, and Snapcaster. But, why mill through your deck with Forbidden Alchemy, if you can just draw the cards instead?

The deck obviously evolved past "taking blue out of solar flare," but that's where my point of reference started. To make up for the loss of blue, I've added the best instant draw spell in black and white, Altar's Reap. I stacked the deck with creatures that net card advantage when dying. I also added 2x Culling Dias and 1x Mentor of the Meek for a more late, long-term draw engine. To make-up for lost counterspells, I added another Black Sun's Zenith and other removal. The win condition that most commonly arises is with Sun Titan. (Sun Titan -> Roc Egg -> Culling Dias, 3/3 Flying Bird every turn). Reassembling Skeleton assures that if that game stalls, you have the upper hand, making him great against control decks and aggro decks alike. He also is a nice counter-maker for Culling Dias, and can give an extra card every turn with Dias and Mentor in play. (EOT Sac Skeleton to Dias, Pay 2 to reanimate Skeleton, Pay 1 to draw from Mentor). All of the creature sacrifice also helps render your opponent's removal useless.

EDIT: Changed decklist based on suggestions and testing.


Last edited by scopeless on Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:18 am; edited 4 times in total
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Spyx



Joined: 31 Oct 2004
Posts: 1188

PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Solemn seems very mediocre with only three sixes. Play some bloodline keepers Wink
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KeySam



Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 649

PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If your going this route, which i am not sure is good, you should definitely play small pox, and should probably play some swords to make your somewhat medicore guys a thread.

KeySam
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Daeron



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I LIKED A LOT! great synergys.
although i did this: -1 culling dais -1altar +1 sofaf
this deck guarantees great matches against good playes with decent decks...
im not sure in the curve... some hands can be very heavy wich is dificult vs aggro decks.
another thing,, i also tried to make a more cfonsistent side... no so match 1 or 2 ofs... try ratched bombs, work fine.
saludos!
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magicman85



Joined: 22 Aug 2009
Posts: 555

PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think you gain that much by taking out blue because of all the UB and UW lands and it gives you a lot more cards to choose from. If you want to draw so much just use Think Twice, Consecrated Sphinx, or even a couple Forbidden Alchemys.
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judas_bcn



Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

instead of simulacrum why not druidic satchel? helps with lands, helps with the sac engine, and may give you some life points to last long enough to start killing opp. also returnable with titan, wich simulacrum isn't.
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judas_bcn



Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

after some testing, this is what i came with:

// Lands
8 [SOM] Swamp (4)
2 [M12] Buried Ruin
2 [ISD] Ghost Quarter
4 [ISD] Isolated Chapel
8 [NPH] Plains (2)

// Creatures
4 [ISD] Doomed Traveler
4 [M12] Reassembling Skeleton
2 [M12] Sun Titan
1 [SOM] Wurmcoil Engine
2 [M12] Roc Egg
1 [M12] Archon of Justice
2 [ISD] Mentor of the Meek

// Spells
4 [ISD] Altar's Reap
3 [MBS] Black Sun's Zenith
3 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
2 [M12] Oblivion Ring
1 [MBS] Go for the Throat
1 [NPH] Dismember
1 [ISD] Unburial Rites
1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
2 [M12] Day of Judgment
2 [M12] Druidic Satchel

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ISD] Ghost Quarter
SB: 2 [M12] Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 [ISD] Unburial Rites
SB: 1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 2 [SOM] Sylvok Lifestaff
SB: 3 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction

main changes:

your deck was 61, so i took off the 3 culling dais, which didn't make anything in the games i played, and added 2 day of judgement for extra board cleaning. some testing may say if one can be added in the place of one reap. reason is this is a midrange deck and you need to survive long enough to get your engine on. i also took the simulacrum off and replaced for 2 druidic satchel, which helps with lands, adds tokens to sac to altar's reap, and gives you like 4 or 6 extra life points to live long enough. it worked really well for me.
another change i'm coonsidering is taking out one roc egg for an extra sword, but still testing.
sb has changed quite a lot. extraction> spellbombs as i prefer to permanently remove the threats i fear. took aout extra spot removal, as with the 2 extra rings, the 2 DoJ added before, and the new 3 ratchet bombs i think they're not needed. also abolisher's out, as only 2 of them don't make the difference, and added the sylvok lifestaff as a recurrable way of gaining life against red and aggro decks.
i was thinking on this deck some time before you posted, but didnt know how to start. let's see if we can make it a good FNM deck, and who knows...
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scopeless



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 38

PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry I haven't responded in a while. Weekends I'm not at the computer as much.

First of all, thanks to all the response to the deck. To answer some questions...

Smallpox: No, I tested it. Although it single-handedly won me a couple games, is also was just Liliana fodder several more.

Cut Solemn for something else: Definitely one of the weaker cards in the deck. Bloodline keepers are not the answer. I do like the druidic satchel suggestion. It kinda does the same thing, just spread out.

Culling Dias: I'm shocked it didn't do anything in the games you played. Its not as good vs. aggro, but vs. control I draw 5,6,7 cards in the late games EVERY TIME. The decks is already good against aggro, so that's not much of a drawback. I wouldn't completely cut it because of synergy with Skeleton + Mentor. I also use it to get bird tokens faster.

More Wrath Effects: The only person I revealed this deck to in ML before posting was SB305198. I mentioned to him that maybe I add some DoJs, too, and just call it 5 Wrath.dec. He suggested more targetted removal and that's where testing led me. Has anyone tested with a higher Wrath-effect count?

More Swords: Yeah, testing showed when I got one sword it was quite good. I going to probably go +1 SoFaF and -1 Dias.

EDIT: I'm going to test this for a while...

-1 Culling Dias
-1 Mentor of the Meek (Good, but situational)
-2 Solemn Simulacrum
+2 Druidic Satchel
+1 Sword of Feast and Famine

I'm not sold on more wrath-like cards, yet, but I will test that next. Let me know if any of you have tried it out!
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scopeless



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 38

PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The suggestions have worked great! I've only lost one match in a handful of testing. I kept it at 61 by doing the changes mentioned above plus one more Mentor for 61. I didn't put Dojs in the maindeck, but they've worked a couple games out of the board nicely. Satchel is definitely > Solemn. Gives more consistency in topdeck battles. Solemn does combo with the sac creature theme but Satchel's card advantage is repeatable.

Has anyone else tested out the deck?
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judas_bcn



Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

untapping lets you play threats precombat, and then on the eot use mana to use druidic satchel or return skeletons. burn goes faster but this is a midrange deck, not sure that would be the way to go.
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judas_bcn



Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i haven't played this for a time, but could precursor golem go into it? cast it, and sac it, you still have 2 3/3 on board.
and sure, dais looked great to me on paper, but the truth is that i haven't played against control so that's why i changed it for DoJ, but for the idea of the deck i agree dais is far more better. i'll just tune my SB to include and maindeck the way you said (dais MD, DoJ SB), and test precursor, still don't how to include it.
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scopeless



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 38

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hawk616 wrote:
Vs control Decks ( this deck is pretty good)

Vs Aggro decks this deck is weak Especially red..


That's funny. I've found the opposite. My creatures enable me to chump block several times, while building card advantage. Reassembling skeleton against red is usually GG for you because a free chump blocker every turn forces them to overplay their hand into your BSZ/Wrath of God (Roc Eggs and Doomed Travellers are good chumps, too). Although I've been noticing the better play vs. control since I added swords. Red is the easiest aggro match-up (BR control is even easier).

Now I think my toughest match-up is GW Tokens. If I don't clear the board before a township or planeswalker hits the board, I'm usually done.

I haven't tested precursor. Might be worth it with reap. Sac 3 golems for 6 cards...?
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scopeless



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 38

PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Engrishskill wrote:
Generally, because I only play control decks that cater to the only competition-grade playing skills that I have, I would pretty much have to play against your deck.

I've eyeballed it a number of times and I just think "worst possible blind match late in a tournament".
Overall, it is very obvious that everything has been tuned. Whenever I try to draw from past experiences, I go for the most memorable stuff first, which means olden times first.

The deck is stupidly obscure, but it was called Peace of Crap and/or Iron Phoenix. It was a metagame monster and it had a super-convoluted lines of play that were a nightmare for me, as a draw-go dude. I suppose a better parallel is Rock decks that had access to vampiric tutor. Simultaneously able to turtle productively, hate-out popular archetypes and able to go aggro.

This decks is quite literally the only thing that doesn't have blue I've wanted to sleeve up since Mirrodin/Kamigawa standard. I have a brew of my own to post, but I do not think it is nearly as polished-looking.

Anyway, I digress: what kind of blue stuff have you played against recently? I imagine uwcuneo.dec would have a generally hard time because so many of the 1 for [as much as possible] won't happen. It is tough to try and imagine how the posted list would do in my meta(read: in vacuum). There's enough of a presence of aggro decks that can do various stupid things to ignore most of what their opponents do to that I'll just have to play them myself online once my term paper exile from anything, but my wee netbook/smartphone.

Yeah-fast thumbs and idle time(read: herculean dog- ing).
I'll add/remove thoughts later...and I am eager to make time for fiddlin' with your brew.


Thanks for the kudos. The deck is very fun, as it has a lot of options EOT and isn't blue doing that...for once. When you run cards that don't care about removal too much, you essentially leave dead cards in your opponent's hand. That's the reason that when I face control, they have to draw almost their entire deck to beat me because their normal answers are useless. With more and more aggro appearing in the meta, I tweaked the list a bit. Here's my most recent list...

// NAME: The Expendables
// AUTHOR: Scopeless

// Lands
8 [ISD] Plains (2)
10 [SOM] Swamp (4)
1 [M12] Buried Ruin
4 [ISD] Isolated Chapel
2 [ISD] Ghost Quarter

// Creatures
4 [ISD] Doomed Traveler
4 [M12] Reassembling Skeleton
2 [M12] Sun Titan
2 [M12] Roc Egg
1 [M12] Archon of Justice
1 [ISD] Mentor of the Meek

// Spells
4 [ISD] Altar's Reap
2 [SOM] Culling Dais
3 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
2 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
2 [M12] Druidic Satchel
2 [MBS] Black Sun's Zenith
2 [M12] Day of Judgment
2 [M12] Oblivion Ring
1 [M12] Doom Blade
1 [NPH] Dismember
1 [NPH] Sword of War and Peace

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ISD] Ghost Quarter
SB: 1 [M12] Day of Judgment
SB: 1 [M12] Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 [ISD] Sever the Bloodline
SB: 1 [NPH] Dismember
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 [NPH] Sword of War and Peace
SB: 2 [SOM] Revoke Existence
SB: 1 [M12] Timely Reinforcements
SB: 1 [SOM] Sylvok Lifestaff

-1 Mentor, -1 Dias, -1 Buried Ruin, -1 Wurmcoil Engine, -1 Black Sun's Zenith, -1 Go 4 The Throat +2 Swamp, +1 Sword of War and Peace, +1 Doom Blade, +2 Day of Judgement and SB Changes.

For a more aggro meta, i've switched 2 dojs in the MD and added a sword of War and peace. The Wurm is kind of a one-trick pony, so I decided to cut it favor a greater focus on swords.

I'm not really sure who I'm losing more games to now. I'd say more game ones to aggro. More game two and threes to control. They run surgical extractions against me and a well timed one on a skeleton when I'm tapped out is a pretty good play. Also Elesh Norn and Curse of Death's Hold are pretty good tech against me.
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scopeless



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 38

PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hawk616 wrote:
i made that exact deck, you posted and copied it to a TEE

and ran it for friday night magic.

Lost 0-2 REDdeck wins
lost 0-2 UW humans

won vs Solarflare 2-0
won vs Wolfs run 2-1
Won vs UB control 2-0

and lost against alot of other decks 1-2


So, what you're (further) stating is that it is good against control and NOT aggro. Looks to me like the deck played with a .500 record for you? Did you copy the list in the first post, or the last post I just made? I feel like I need 2+ of some black one-drop, just to help the deck's curve. I love going turn 1 doomed traveller, opp turn 2 altar's reap. Sometimes I'll catch blue countering that reap, leaving me free to cast anything on turn 3 (liliana, sword, satchel). So, having that play more consistently on turn 1 would be a step in the right direction. It would play "faster" against control, and add more value to an early chump block against aggro.

Any ideas on that add idea, and what I could cut for them?
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scopeless



Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 38

PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hawk616 wrote:
i think its a nice casual deck idea.

50% isent a good ratio lol
i like to win , i dont play to lose xP

timely reforcements are needed main board,
the oppenent will always have more creatures then you , feul for altars reap , and the 6 life comes in handy too.

i didnt draw sun titan much , i would add a 3rd.

its a late game deck,
id add a copy of sorgins vengence 10 damage gg

later in game, the deck is either in control, or its not.
vengence would be a great way to win, if you can get them to 10 life, then late game u could go from aggro rush, to chump blocking till you get 7mana...


Crazy! I thought about Vengeance after my last post, but dismissed it. Haven't tested, yet, but maybe I will now that I saw someone else thought the same thing. I did come up with more one-drops...+2 Flayer Husk. Working well.
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