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Can Thalakos Dreamsower freeze multiple creatures?



 
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Miqo



Joined: 24 Aug 2008
Posts: 47

PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:28 am    Post subject: Continuous Effects, Rule 611.2b Reply with quote

If an ability has the wording "for as long as", then the stated condition has to be true during the effect and before the effect is applied. If Thalakos Dreamsower becomes untapped before the triggered ability resolves, the effect won't do anything since the duration was over before it began. Here's the rule you want to refer to.

611.2b Some continuous effects generated by the resolution of a spell or ability have durations worded “for as long as . . . .” If the “for as long as” duration never starts, or it ends before the moment the effect would first be applied, the effect does nothing. It doesn’t start and immediately stop again, and it doesn’t last forever.
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GreenBear



Joined: 27 Jul 2010
Posts: 899

PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought damage hadn't used the stack since m11 rules changes
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Trivial



Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:17 am    Post subject: Checking Reply with quote

Combat damage does not use the stack, correct. The Dreamsower would have to have been given a pinging ability to be applicable.

Having said, that I see multiple rulings upon further review, and I am checking to see which is correct.
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Hardtrack



Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 651

PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If something applies for 'as long as' something is true it means that the condition has to be true for the entire time. As soon as Thalakos Dreamsower becomes untapped its effect ends.

So creature A untaps normally as soon as you untap the Dreamsower. It doesn't matter that you tap it again, the effect ended the moment you untapped it.
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kane2



Joined: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 94

PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If he is given the ability to ping.. then u can stack it so that:

stack deal 1 to opp
untap
stack deal 1 to opp
then let the damage resolve allowing you to tap 2 creatures.

it works since the damage has to resolve before the ability triggers
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xJudicatorx



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 696

PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you untap him, the effect preventing the tapped creature from untapping in its controller's untap step ends. It will still be tapped until then.
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kane2



Joined: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 94

PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xJudicatorx wrote:
When you untap him, the effect preventing the tapped creature from untapping in its controller's untap step ends. It will still be tapped until then.


Not if both pings resolve when he is tapped from the 2nd one.. at that point he will be tapped and therefore will keep 2 creatures tapped until you choose to untap the dreamsower.
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xJudicatorx



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 696

PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kane2 wrote:
xJudicatorx wrote:
When you untap him, the effect preventing the tapped creature from untapping in its controller's untap step ends. It will still be tapped until then.


Not if both pings resolve when he is tapped from the 2nd one.. at that point he will be tapped and therefore will keep 2 creatures tapped until you choose to untap the dreamsower.


He specifically said he resolved the first ping before using the second.
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Miqo



Joined: 24 Aug 2008
Posts: 47

PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please refer to the first reply. Smile The information I gave is accurate and correct, and most here are simply using their own logic to give an answer to the problem. Thalakos actually needs to remain tapped after using the ability and before the effect is applied, otherwise the effect is void when it resolves and nothing will happen. Effects with "for as long as" work that way. Wink
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moscowdemon
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Posts: 297

PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miqo is correct on this. This is because the ability relies on state based actions. It basically checks that since ACTIVATION (notice: not resolution) the card has not untapped. This also is a rule that applies to Rubina the EDH general for anyone who has heard of it. I am sure Clariax will come around at some point to clean this up with proper terms and description. (but essentially you can think of it checking since activation)
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Hardtrack



Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 651

PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This has nothing to do with state-based actions, but simply with the way the ability is worded.

If, at any time after the activation of the ability, the Thalakos Dreamsower becomes untaps, its effect that prevents the target from untapping in the Untap Step ends.

It doesn't matter what happens to the Dreamsower after that, it doesn't matter if it is tapped or not in the Untap Step. The moment it becomes untapped its effect ends and the targetted creature can untap normally in the Untap Step again.
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Clariax
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hardtrack wrote:

If, at any time after the activation of the ability, the Thalakos Dreamsower becomes untaps, its effect that prevents the target from untapping in the Untap Step ends.


There seems to be some confusion created here by the fact people are talking about giving the Thalakos Dreamsower an activated ability by some other effect. Thalakos Dreamsower itself doesn't have any activated abilities though. The ability that keeps the target creature tapped is a triggered ability.

How the Dreamsower deals the damage, and what happens before the damage, how many times it becomes tapped and untapped, doesn't matter. What matters is that from the time the Dreamsower does the damage (when the ability triggers), it remains tapped. Once that ability has triggered, if the Dreamsower becomes untapped for any reason, the duration is over, and the effect of the ability ends (even if the effect hasn't started yet).
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