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Request that non-judges be able to idle in judges4you


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This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Magic-League.com Forum Index -> General Magic-League Issues

Would allowing non-judges to idle in judges4you benefit magic-league?
Yes
51%
 51%  [ 19 ]
No
48%
 48%  [ 18 ]
Total Votes : 37

Author Message
derflippi
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 19 Mar 2005
Posts: 1402
Location: Weiterstad

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AppleofEris wrote:
A simple solution here:

2.) There can be community oversight of the judges, which is important to maintain a fair league.


That is the responsibility of high level judges, especially the judge director. Also: M-L is not a democracy.
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Farseer
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 03 Oct 2004
Posts: 335

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AppleofEris wrote:
darkwizard42 wrote:
DonDiggys point is most important. Judge rulings are private. People will discuss them in another channel if they can't in J4U. Judges have the responsibility and the understanding that what happens in J4U is private. Giving that information to everyone makes asking the "stupid" simple questions intimidating when all your peers can openly discuss that question.

I vote against this. If you want to be a judge, study and read on rulings online. Don't use being unable to idle in J4U as an excuse to not study properly.


So when at an event and a person at my table calls a judge, I am to plug my ears?


If your opponent wants to ask a private question, yes.
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tchiseen



Joined: 08 Mar 2010
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about someone just pastbins interesting/relevant logs? If you really want to, you can go read logs after the fact.

More people idling in J4U is a bad idea.
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AppleofEris



Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 553

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CMA-Flippi wrote:
AppleofEris wrote:
A simple solution here:

2.) There can be community oversight of the judges, which is important to maintain a fair league.


That is the responsibility of high level judges, especially the judge director. Also: M-L is not a democracy.


Actually, you're the only one saying it is not. What if everyone here decides we want it to be? Then can we just take over?

The only person here who can stop us is Koen.
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moscowdemon
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Posts: 297

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AppleofEris wrote:
CMA-Flippi wrote:
AppleofEris wrote:
A simple solution here:

2.) There can be community oversight of the judges, which is important to maintain a fair league.


That is the responsibility of high level judges, especially the judge director. Also: M-L is not a democracy.


Actually, you're the only one saying it is not. What if everyone here decides we want it to be? Then can we just take over?

The only person here who can stop us is Koen.


LOL that is most certainly not true. Why do we always have to lead into a coup-like state everytime the staff gives their ruling on a matter? I don't see you trying to trying to take over Wotc for converting to PWP... Why must you always try to make these kind of ideas exist here Sad
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Mykrob56
Level 1 Judge


Joined: 07 Nov 2009
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way I see it, being able to idle in j4you is a privilege, not a right. Judges have worked hard and put forth effort to learn the rules, and being a judge here is the result of that work. Why should we allow people who haven't put forth that effort to idle in judges4you? To me, its the same answer as when people ask why normal members can't host minis; pass the judge test. If you want judge privileges, become a judge.
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Strid3r



Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 295

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

moscowdemon wrote:
AppleofEris wrote:
CMA-Flippi wrote:
AppleofEris wrote:
A simple solution here:

2.) There can be community oversight of the judges, which is important to maintain a fair league.


That is the responsibility of high level judges, especially the judge director. Also: M-L is not a democracy.


Actually, you're the only one saying it is not. What if everyone here decides we want it to be? Then can we just take over?

The only person here who can stop us is Koen.


LOL that is most certainly not true. Why do we always have to lead into a coup-like state everytime the staff gives their ruling on a matter? I don't see you trying to trying to take over Wotc for converting to PWP... Why must you always try to make these kind of ideas exist here Sad


That is because most judges like to show how powerful they are. They express themselves in a very comical way often imo. Thereby they want to show how they are better than non-judges, how they are smarter and how the normal non-judge person can't do anything against it. They just tend to opress non-judges. - this wouldn't be so awful in a democratic system
imo

So it is no wonder that these kinds of ideas exist here
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niknight



Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 261

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AppleofEris wrote:
CMA-Flippi wrote:
AppleofEris wrote:
A simple solution here:

2.) There can be community oversight of the judges, which is important to maintain a fair league.


That is the responsibility of high level judges, especially the judge director. Also: M-L is not a democracy.


Actually, you're the only one saying it is not. What if everyone here decides we want it to be? Then can we just take over?

The only person here who can stop us is Koen.


Apple, allow me to inform you of one thing: Pure democracy is a terrible form of government. The average citizen cannot possibly be well enough informed on all of the issues to make educated decisions, and still be able to perform their jobs. On a large scale, democracy has huge logistical issues, such as holding nationwide votes on a regular basis. On a small scale (such as our league), democracy becomes mob rule.

This is the reason that most developed societies have chosen to go for a representative form of government. The main difference between Magic-League and national governments is that our representative body is not elected, it is chosen through a merit application test (our judge exam). Of all the people who passed the test, I have approved all but a handful... and these people have been people that I feel will (or in some cases have) abuse their position.
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Trivial



Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:22 am    Post subject: Thank you for taking this seriously Reply with quote

All,

Thank you for taking this seriously (as evidenced by your impassioned replies).

Flippi and niknight are quite right: This is not a democracy. All I can hope to do is to hope that my reasoning convinces those who do make these decisions.

It is my opinion that allowing idlers would help judges and non-judges, both, and would be a net benefit to magic-league. I wish this opinion to spread.

Sincerely,

Jeff
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AppleofEris



Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 553

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

niknight wrote:
AppleofEris wrote:
CMA-Flippi wrote:
AppleofEris wrote:
A simple solution here:

2.) There can be community oversight of the judges, which is important to maintain a fair league.


That is the responsibility of high level judges, especially the judge director. Also: M-L is not a democracy.


Actually, you're the only one saying it is not. What if everyone here decides we want it to be? Then can we just take over?

The only person here who can stop us is Koen.


Apple, allow me to inform you of one thing: Pure democracy is a terrible form of government. The average citizen cannot possibly be well enough informed on all of the issues to make educated decisions, and still be able to perform their jobs. On a large scale, democracy has huge logistical issues, such as holding nationwide votes on a regular basis. On a small scale (such as our league), democracy becomes mob rule.

This is the reason that most developed societies have chosen to go for a representative form of government. The main difference between Magic-League and national governments is that our representative body is not elected, it is chosen through a merit application test (our judge exam). Of all the people who passed the test, I have approved all but a handful... and these people have been people that I feel will (or in some cases have) abuse their position.


You're right for the most part but I'll have to disagree with on one part and that is you being the sole discretionary force for judge approval. If you were an evil, egotistical man (as many judges turn out to be *cough* noremac *cough*), what mechanism is in place to ensure that you do your job fairly?

We need a system of checks and balances, and ultimately, the league belongs to the people anyway (it's our traffic that funds this site).
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AppleofEris



Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 553

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

strid3r wrote:
moscowdemon wrote:
AppleofEris wrote:
CMA-Flippi wrote:
AppleofEris wrote:
A simple solution here:

2.) There can be community oversight of the judges, which is important to maintain a fair league.


That is the responsibility of high level judges, especially the judge director. Also: M-L is not a democracy.


Actually, you're the only one saying it is not. What if everyone here decides we want it to be? Then can we just take over?

The only person here who can stop us is Koen.


LOL that is most certainly not true. Why do we always have to lead into a coup-like state everytime the staff gives their ruling on a matter? I don't see you trying to trying to take over Wotc for converting to PWP... Why must you always try to make these kind of ideas exist here Sad


That is because most judges like to show how powerful they are. They express themselves in a very comical way often imo. Thereby they want to show how they are better than non-judges, how they are smarter and how the normal non-judge person can't do anything against it. They just tend to opress non-judges. - this wouldn't be so awful in a democratic system
imo

So it is no wonder that these kinds of ideas exist here


You remember what happened with Nikoleye, when he made a bot that could run tournaments and they nearly sent out a hit squad?

That should have never happened and not enough people stood up and got angry.
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Trivial



Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:39 am    Post subject: The system worked Reply with quote

AppleofEris,

The situation with Nikoleye is a great example of how the system WORKED. There was initial resistance and good reasons to be against the bot. However, those who make the decisions listened and were persuaded that the bot was a benefit to magic-league and the judge staff.

The outcome was a huge positive to players and judges. The draft bot is an austounding success and is precisely what happens because the leaders here listen and allow themselves to be open to reasoned attempts at persuasion.

What more can we ask for?

I thank them.

Jeff
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AppleofEris



Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 553

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:32 am    Post subject: Re: The system worked Reply with quote

Trivial wrote:
AppleofEris,

The situation with Nikoleye is a great example of how the system WORKED. There was initial resistance and good reasons to be against the bot. However, those who make the decisions listened and were persuaded that the bot was a benefit to magic-league and the judge staff.

The outcome was a huge positive to players and judges. The draft bot is an austounding success and is precisely what happens because the leaders here listen and allow themselves to be open to reasoned attempts at persuasion.

What more can we ask for?

I thank them.

Jeff


What more can we ask for?

For the bot to be able to run constructed events. But wait, I guess that would mean fewer people are gonna be judges? If this were the case, then you'd better ban individual matches too.
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MikeL123



Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a significant advantage to being a judge and idling in #judges4you while questions are asked related to a tournament that a judge is playing in.

Knowing a single spell or interaction or ruling related to a person's deck will give you a good guess into their decklist and decktype, and will allow you a significant advantage when deciding to mulligan, how to play your first few turns in game 1, etc.

For this reason, I'd suggest that anyone is allowed idle in #judges4you, with strictly enforced "STFU" rules in place.
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fdart17



Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MikeL123 wrote:
There is a significant advantage to being a judge and idling in #judges4you while questions are asked related to a tournament that a judge is playing in.

Knowing a single spell or interaction or ruling related to a person's deck will give you a good guess into their decklist and decktype, and will allow you a significant advantage when deciding to mulligan, how to play your first few turns in game 1, etc.

For this reason, I'd suggest that anyone is allowed idle in #judges4you, with strictly enforced "STFU" rules in place.


A counterpoint to this has already been named above. Namely that the logs are available to the public, and that you can get way more information out of those than a single question in j4u.
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