Magic-League.com Forum Index Magic-League.com
Forums of Magic-League: Free Online tcg playing; casual or tournament play.
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

How to Start Guide - Feedback Wanted!


Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Reply to topic    Magic-League.com Forum Index -> General Magic-League Issues
Author Message
Strid3r



Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 295

PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AppleofEris wrote:

Also, considering the way the staff treats us (the whole debacle with Nikoleye's draft bot, the lack of minis <other than when DARKING is on> and our lack of freedom of speech in the forums), we are not really a part of Magic-League, other than the fact that we all pay their server bills.


I agree with that.

Also they have no apparent reason for that, which is weird... Sad
Back to top
moscowdemon
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Posts: 297

PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

appleoferis: rules are set for reasons. and the reasoning behind not getting ML in trouble is because WOTC can literally use any reasoning to put a lawsuit on the site, which is why being careful is important. its not fair for u to act like ur being repressed as a person, because you arent. the league has rules, which by signing up, u agreed to follow. if anything, the league was EXTREMELY generous for going thru the trouble of working out an agreement on the draft bot. i dont know about u, but im not here to try to change the world, im here to play magic, and if they have rules and restrictions on how we can do it, then it happens. i know personally i dont want to see anything happen to the league, as i really enjoy it here, u dont have to feel that way, but u should respect that. trying to find loopholes in everything isnt what the staff is trying to do (to my knowledge) and they should NOT be made out to be some corrupt force. i know personally that roo does all he can to benefit the league, which is why he does what he does. thank these admins for us even having this place still. they could have easily just closed the league up when the c&d came in.
Quote:
Also, considering the way the staff treats us (the whole debacle with Nikoleye's draft bot, the lack of minis <other than when DARKING is on> and our lack of freedom of speech in the forums), we are not really a part of Magic-League, other than the fact that we all pay their server bills.

this is completely disrespectful of u to say and its not right. ur a part of this league as much as any other player or admin is and u know it. and with coverage hopefully expanding greatly once the new site rolls around, i cant wait to see the opportunities and things we can achieve then. just chill out with the whole zealot act for a bit and enjoy the league! trying to resist makes it worse for everyone involved
Back to top
Weedmonkey



Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 324

PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I'm going to address everything so far. I'll try to be brief, because there are some points that I will be raising in an upcoming article:

On other languages: I think this is a great idea Smile Based on the data I have, the three main languages used by far are English, Portuguese and Spanish. To round it out to five, we would add German and Finnish to the list.

That being said, I'm about 3/4 of the way through rewriting the How to Start guide at the moment, so if anyone is happy to translate a document into the native language, I'll be more than happy to whip up a style guide Smile

On xJudicatorx's suggestions: I'm taking both on board Smile Coming right out and saying it is set out as a note in the new guide, and I'm thinking of changing the link to "Getting Started on Magic-League". People should tell me if this is good or suggest a better one Smile

On liability: I am far from a legal expert (fortunately, we have a judge who has far more knowledge in this area than me :p), but to the best of my knowledge we cannot be held accountable for what our community members do.

On limitations: As a staff member, I'm still acting on the advice that was given to me at the time of the C&D - and will continue to do so until I am explicitly told otherwise by nico, Koen or niknight. Essentially, as a staff member I cannot provide direct advice on what application to download and install, nor walk through a player on how to install it. However, questions related to a specific application I believe are fine (such as how to install a patch or set logs to autosave).

On staff treatment: This is an issue I'm always hesitant to bring up because my position as a staff member will always taint my opinion on the issue. For those who are excessively recalcitrant and/or bigoted, it can make the issue worse.

That being said, I am going to say this. I have been on this league for a bloody long time, even though I've only been judging for two and a half years. I pride myself on my being approachable, friendly, diplomatic and level-headed, and the positive comments I receive from players reflect this. I fuck up a lot as a staff member, but I always do what I believe is best for Magic-League. If this makes me an ****, Stalinist, power-hungry or the next Kim Jong-Il, so be it. I will do what I believe is in the best interests of Magic-League, and I've put in the effort to make sure that I have the best opportunities available to me to do it.
Back to top
zebo_88



Joined: 12 Sep 2005
Posts: 123
Location: Phyrexia

PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Weedmonkey wrote:

On other languages: I think this is a great idea Smile Based on the data I have, the three main languages used by far are English, Portuguese and Spanish. To round it out to five, we would add German and Finnish to the list.


If you'd like to include also italian in this list i'd be happy to help translating.. Smile
Back to top
AppleofEris



Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 553

PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hood: the feel threatened by the draft bot because if people could make their own minis, why would they want to be judges, even though these minis are just an organization of either league/casual matches

Moscow: WotC is a (limited liability) company with lawyers. They aren't gonna take legal action unless they can win. SolidIRC provides ML with their IRC services, so as long as we don't post anything on the ML forums, we're protected by SolidIRC. Also, the staff here already have huge egos, they don't need you inflating them.

Roo: You know you aren't the staff that my comment was directed towards. However, there are some on the staff who are very Stalinistic, although this has changed in the last few years, the issue with the draft bot goes to show that the staff here view this site as theirs, not ours, and not Koens.

On the note of languages: I think that anyone who can translate from English to another language should do so, no matter how few people speak it.

Finally, ML-staff, man up and let draft bot run constructed tournaments.
Back to top
moscowdemon
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Posts: 297

PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

appleoferis, if u have read all the discussions about the things like the bot and such, u would understand. if players could run events and not need to be judges, do u realize what that would lead to? players then wouldnt want to be judges anymore cuz thats more work than they want to do. that means less judges, less judges means trials dont get run on time, that means the staff shrinks and then the league ceases to exist.
secondly, i am not inflating their egos, do u have no clue what respect is? ur completely disrespectful to the people who devout their time to this league. and NO they DONT get paid. they do it all for free, i think they deserve some thanks to be honest. and im not sure who u are trying to claim is being stalinistic, but u need to seriously just stop with this. if u want to change things, get on judge staff and make it up the ranks into administration and make some changes. dont go bitching about how people run things when u seem to not have interest in having to do the work they do.
and if u realized they cant code swiss events for the site currently, im pretty sure u wouldnt tell staff to "man-up" and do soemthing they cant do. the draft bot isnt running tournaments even in draft! what makes u think they will upgrade it to constructed and to tournaments as well? it allows for multiround drafts, not for tournaments. this seems to be the area u dont get.
if ur gonna bitch and bitch and bitch about having things done ur way, either 1. "man-up" urself and pass the judge test, or 2. go to fucking burger king.
Back to top
AppleofEris



Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 553

PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

moscowdemon wrote:
appleoferis, if u have read all the discussions about the things like the bot and such, u would understand. if players could run events and not need to be judges, do u realize what that would lead to? players then wouldnt want to be judges anymore cuz thats more work than they want to do. that means less judges, less judges means trials dont get run on time, that means the staff shrinks and then the league ceases to exist.
secondly, i am not inflating their egos, do u have no clue what respect is? ur completely disrespectful to the people who devout their time to this league. and NO they DONT get paid. they do it all for free, i think they deserve some thanks to be honest. and im not sure who u are trying to claim is being stalinistic, but u need to seriously just stop with this. if u want to change things, get on judge staff and make it up the ranks into administration and make some changes. dont go bitching about how people run things when u seem to not have interest in having to do the work they do.
and if u realized they cant code swiss events for the site currently, im pretty sure u wouldnt tell staff to "man-up" and do soemthing they cant do. the draft bot isnt running tournaments even in draft! what makes u think they will upgrade it to constructed and to tournaments as well? it allows for multiround drafts, not for tournaments. this seems to be the area u dont get.
if ur gonna bitch and bitch and bitch about having things done ur way, either 1. "man-up" urself and pass the judge test, or 2. go to fucking burger king.


So the bot running constructed events would be bad because judges are only judges so they can run minis, yet you say they volunteer their service and therefore deserve our respect automatically. Which is it? They're not doing it for free if they're doing it for the right to make minis.

At any rate, if all the judges quit today and stopped making minis, this site would still continue on. Basically, all it needs is IRC and a bot, both of which are free.
Back to top
niknight



Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 261

PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AppleofEris wrote:

At any rate, if all the judges quit today and stopped making minis, this site would still continue on. Basically, all it needs is IRC and a bot, both of which are free.


In this scenario, please explain how you would deal with the following, without resorting to a judge or judge-like person:

1. Two players have a game play dispute (rules, inability to agree on game state)

2. One player is actively cheating in a game.

3. One player intentionally misreports the results of their match.

I'm sure I can think of more... but it's well past 2AM
Back to top
moscowdemon
Level 4 Judge


Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Posts: 297

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So the bot running constructed events would be bad because judges are only judges so they can run minis, yet you say they volunteer their service and therefore deserve our respect automatically. Which is it? They're not doing it for free if they're doing it for the right to make minis.


first of all, make sense when u write something. this seriously is making no sense except for the last sentence. the judges are unable to make a swiss event, they really actually cannot make a swiss event. its not supported. and they still run the rest of the mini if they lose, thus they are giving there time. they could just as easily only do league matches if they really wanted. and u cant argue the judges can make swiss events if they want because it truly isn't supported by the site.
Back to top
AppleofEris



Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 553

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

niknight: the same way someone handles this in casual matches. Don't get me wrong, it's a good thing that there are judges here, but the judges are not required for there to be an online league. Futhermore, we will never be without judges, even if draftbot ran constructed tournaments. There will always be someone who wants to be a judge just for the sake and enjoyment of being a judge. Assuming that people only want to be judges to run minis is a wrong-headed assumption, at least judging by the number of minis per day.

moscowdemon: it's ironic you accuse me of not making sense...
Back to top
Gerrardfo



Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 361

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
niknight: the same way someone handles this in casual matches. Don't get me wrong, it's a good thing that there are judges here, but the judges are not required for there to be an online league.


Please explain this assertion further. You claim that it could be handled similarly to what is done in casual matches, but you have not provided evidence for what is universally done in casual matches or supported the conclusion that this outcome is optimal. I do not know of any consistent standard in the former (unless you want to enlighten all of us). How would disputes be settled in a judge-less league when prizes or points are at stake? If nobody has the authority to resolve a conflict, and people go off of haphazard solutions in casual matches (assumed haphazard because no organized set of principles has been proposed by you), how do you plan to maintain the integrity of the game?


Quote:
Futhermore, we will never be without judges, even if draftbot ran constructed tournaments. There will always be someone who wants to be a judge just for the sake and enjoyment of being a judge.


Please provide evidence for this claim as well. If there is no incentive to become a judge and, by your account the judge is a pretty peripheral role who doesn't actually do anything, why would it matter to have judges or not and how would it be enjoyed?

Quote:
Assuming that people only want to be judges to run minis is a wrong-headed assumption, at least judging by the number of minis per day.


I don't think this claim is substantiated by the last statement. Sure, not everyone wants to be a judge to run minis. However, many people assert they're going to run many minis when they become judges, and then they drop off the face of the earth two months later. The mini count doesn't reflect that the claim people only want to be judges to run minis is incorrect; it only suggests that there's a gap between what people want to do and what they actually do.
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Magic-League.com Forum Index -> General Magic-League Issues All times are GMT - 7 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

All content on this page may not be reproduced without consent of Magic-League Directors.
Magic the Gathering is TM and copyright Wizards of the Coast, Inc, a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc. All rights reserved.


About Us | Contact Us | Privacy Policy