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Reminding players



 
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Delicious



Joined: 08 Jun 2007
Posts: 883

PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:15 am    Post subject: Reminding players Reply with quote

I play a multiplayer blue deck that runs some rhystic studies and my opponents always cry because I dont remind them of the trigger from the study

Do I have to remind them or do they have to pay attention?
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baltazar09



Joined: 10 Jun 2011
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even though the ability is optional.

Last edited by baltazar09 on Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:37 am; edited 2 times in total
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niknight



Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 261

PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even though the ability is optional, you are still required to ask your opponent if they choose to pay 1 or not.
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MassO



Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

niknight wrote:
Even though the ability is optional, you are still required to ask your opponent if they choose to pay 1 or not.


Sorry Niknight, but you are wrong.

Since the opponent will usually be the active player when Rhystic Study activates then the opponent would have to pay the 1 before resolving his or her spell that they have cast.

Lets say they cast a Fabricate with one mana still available, and I say Ok, and they start searching their library, then they have passed on pay the 1 for the study.

Usually people will act astonished that you drew a card and ask why did you draw?

You point out the Study and then they want to pay the 1, which is not legal because they have already resolved the spell they have cast and searched their library.
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niknight



Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 261

PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MassO wrote:
niknight wrote:
Even though the ability is optional, you are still required to ask your opponent if they choose to pay 1 or not.


Sorry Niknight, but you are wrong.

Since the opponent will usually be the active player when Rhystic Study activates then the opponent would have to pay the 1 before resolving his or her spell that they have cast.

Lets say they cast a Fabricate with one mana still available, and I say Ok, and they start searching their library, then they have passed on pay the 1 for the study.

Usually people will act astonished that you drew a card and ask why did you draw?

You point out the Study and then they want to pay the 1, which is not legal because they have already resolved the spell they have cast and searched their library.


MassO,

Since the ability is controlled by Delicious, but it requires his opponent to make a choice, it cannot have a default action. In this case, it is considered a missed trigger. Remember, in order for Delicious to draw a card, his opponent MUST CHOOSE to not pay the mana. There is no opportunity to forget to do this, so Delicious must remind his opponent. If he fails to remind him, and draws a card anyway, it's Game Play Error - Missed Trigger and the remedy below is used (Section 3.1 of the Infraction Procedure Guide)

If the trigger requires a choice that does not have a default action, requires a choice made by another player, or
requires no choice, but will have an effect on the visual representation of the game, and the error is caught within the
scope of a turn cycle (see below for definition), place the forgotten ability on the stack.

Edit: Here is a quote from the DCIJudge mailing list from NetRep Scott Marshall:

Actually, Rhystic Study was the precedent that led us to our position re: Frost Titan. I think this is pretty close to an exact quote, from Toby: "If you want the card, you have to ask."

We really can't be assuming things here - because Player A controls the trigger, but Player B has the choice to make.
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warwizard87



Joined: 04 Oct 2006
Posts: 201

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sooooo its not like upkeep triggers, like pacts or upkeep costs then?
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Hardtrack



Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 651

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The difference with the Pacts (and many triggers like it) is that the whole is controlled by one player. It is his trigger, he has to pay for it and he gets the bad stuff if he doesn't. That makes it a very different beast from the trigger of Rhystic Study.
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Delicious



Joined: 08 Jun 2007
Posts: 883

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After they cast a spell and I remind them about it, can they take the play back?
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Davis



Joined: 06 Jun 2009
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Delicious wrote:
After they cast a spell and I remind them about it, can they take the play back?


I doubt it, since an opponent has to cast a spell for you to place the trigger on the stack which is really what you're doing, right?

Look:

niknight wrote:
There is no opportunity to forget to do this, so Delicious must remind his opponent.


Should be read as: You HAVE to place the trigger on the stack when an opponent casts a spell. There is no reminding. They HAVE to choose to pay 1 or not to pay 1.


Lots of edits, my bad.


ANOTHER EDIT:

It's like casting a 2cmc spell w/out seeing Chalice of the Void w/ 2 charge counters on it, would you let someone take that back?
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Clariax
Level 3 Judge


Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems there's a bit of confusion on one small point here. You do NOT need to announce the trigger going on the stack. The trigger goes on the stack by itself, there's no targets, no decisions involved with it going on the stack, so nothing that needs to be announced.

What must be dealt with explicitly is the resolution of the trigger. When it RESOLVES you must ask your opponent if he's paying 1 or not. And when you're informing them of the trigger, the spell that triggered it has already been cast, the opponent can't rewind casting that spell because they weren't aware doing so would cause an ability to trigger.
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Dzy



Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 148

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what about Tabernacle at Pendrell's Vale? Why is that different? Because their creatures get the trigger? Because I keep reading tournament reports where they say: They forgot to pay for Tabernacle, they lost!
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MikeL123



Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read what the judge wrote.

Ask yourself: is there a decision required by BOTH players?

If yes, then you need to remind your opponent.
If no, then you do not.

Tabernacle and most upkeep effects require a decision by only one player (the other guy).

Rhystic Study requires a decision by both players: does the other guy pay? (y/n). If no, do I wish to draw a card? (y/n)
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G0ND412



Joined: 18 May 2011
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so if the draw a card part was mandatory, you wouldn't need to ask?
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Hardtrack



Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 651

PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have to remind them because they have to pay (or not).
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mysticism



Joined: 25 Mar 2011
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G0ND412 wrote:
so if the draw a card part was mandatory, you wouldn't need to ask?


Yes. If there is a default action for the missed trigger (the opponent forgets to pay) it will go under the "missed trigger" rule and the default (wich is you draw a card) will happen without using the stack.

Same for the tabernacle. Default is destroy the creature, so unless you pay, it gets destroyed, you dont get to retroactivly pay for it
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